Post-Poisoning Meds Withdrawal symptoms?

[trippsdogdad7774]

Hi Holistic Actions! team, we just joined today and are so grateful this resource exists. My husband and I are based in Germany and our pup, Tripp, is having a rough couple days after a rough couple weeks. Appreciate the support very much, details below!

1. Tripp
2. 5.5
3. Male
4. Castrated
5. Pointer mix
6. 31kg/68lbs
7. As of yesterday, B = laying down all day, no desire to be outside (never happens), looks tired, heavy body, E = incredible tired/low energy, which is very uncharacteristic for him. he just wants to be still and rest. he's never been this tired or disinterested in going outside since we adopted him in April, 2020 A = yesterday his appetite was still good despite some signs of struggling with something his body is processing. today he's still eating but smaller amounts and not very enthusiastically. yesterday he barely drank and as of an hour ago he finally started to willingly drink a bit again. M = despondent, seems sad and frustrated that he feels so bad. still himself with his normal personality traits, but clouded by whatever is going on <3
8. Typical diet includes steamed potatoes, apples, steamed peas, steamed winter squash, raw beef, beef marrow bones for dinner every night, sardines packed in either olive or sunflower oil (we try to remove the oil as much as possible), and other dog-safe fresh fruits and veggies for snacks (cucumbers, mangoes, dates, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, tomatoes). He also gets natural dried meat snacks of various types and occasionally a bit of grain-free chicken-based dry food (normally for on the go). His diet lately since a poison exposure a couple weeks ago which I'll describe below has been more potatoes in the day, less fat-dense foods, still marrow bones about half of the time for dinner, a bit of beef, and sardines along with supplements once per day including liquid zinc sulfate (a few drops), vitamin B12, barley grass juice powder, spirulina, Atlantic dulse, and Micro C vitamin C powder.
9. He was vaccinated in 2020 as a matter of law in Germany, where we live. Also in January, 2021 as my husband wanted to do it. He was very listless after this shot and we agreed that we would no longer vaccinate from then on. Tripp ate something poisonous on Sept 10th. Unfortunately we cant be sure what it was but he suddenly had a terrible reaction including mouth muscle spasms which quickly led to whole-body seizures, vomiting, defecating, eyes rolling back into head, and loss of muscle control. We believe he may have somehow ingested a poisoned rat or mouse as we live in the country where locals sometimes use poisons for pest control. Nothing like this has ever happened before. We rushed him to the emergency vet where they gave him anesthesia to knock him out since his fever was quite high and the seizures were not subsiding on their own quickly enough. He woke up the next day and received a fat-dense infusion to bind onto and pull out toxins which spiked his blood fat quite high for over a week. We were given Luminal, an anti-convulsive phenobarbital drug. He started at 50mg 2x day, then went down to 37.5mg 2x per day the week following, and is now at 25mg per day. Next week we'll reduce to 12.5mg per day and then stop altogether (hopefully). He has had bloodshot eyes since being on the meds and was quite weak at first after leaving the clinic, but regained strength and was relatively stable within 3-4 days. Now that we are reducing the meds the situation seems to be changing.
10. Current problems started 24 hours ago after a bowel movement where his muscles seemed to tense up a bit. These are: lack of appetite (only today, never has happened before), lack of desire to drink (just last 24 hours), extremely tired/low energy (have never seen him so sick), and a steady opaque mucusy discharge (white in color with a bit of yellow tinge) with a foul odor from eyes, nose, mouth, and penis, which all began yesterday evening. He's had a few slight muscle spasms and twitches, but nothing that lasted longer than a few seconds. We understand this may be a symptom of withdrawal from the phenobarbital but are contacting our vet here to confirm.
11. Right now he's pretty unresponsive to stimulus and his usual favorite things, which again, is very rare for him. He's never been this sick . He's still himself personality-wise, and is not irritable. Just confused and quite exhausted.
12. Yes, we recently had a blood test done as a follow up to the emergency visit. Unfortunately they couldn't get levels on everything due to the extremely high blood fat content as a result of the toxin-removing infusion he received. I'll include it here.
13. We're currently reducing his medication, allowing him to rest, making sure he is eating and drinking (coconut water seems to be more enticing for him right now rather than plain water), and will take him in for a vet visit if he doesn't improve by tomorrow. We have a follow-up vet visit planned for Oct 10th for another blood test after we've stopped the meds which we're told can also mess with blood fat and nutrient levels as well as organ health. We can't wait to get him off these meds... but don't want to rush as this type of medication is quite sensitive.
14. We're just not sure if he's come down with a pretty bad bug or bacterial infection in addition to the stress his body has been under recently from poison, meds, and stress.

THANK YOU! I know this is a lot. We really appreciate the support and look forward to any guidance that we receive. We're doing our best to navigate a natural/holistic approach at home with the conventional treatments we can't avoid in emergency situations. We can't wait to have our baby back to normal!

- Nathan, Peter, & Tripp

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Welcome to HA!, and thanks so much for making your first post! We're very grateful that you're here.

Tripp looks super happy and handsome and I'm very sorry to hear what he has been going through.

Despite everything, his 9/20 blood tests look good!

Do you know what the tests showed when you first brought him to the ER?

How long had he been seizuring before the high temp (and how high was it)??

When he was well, what was his very favorite thing to do or eat?

Is there anything that seems to motivate him or make him happy at this time?

Does he respond to being outside or coming in?

Does he seem to like being petted and talked to?

You may want to think about getting him outside to be in contact with the earth as often as possible.

Lots of micro-engagements (just looking him in the eyes and telling him you love him or taking him outside, or a super special treat, or...) every few hours will help re-activate his natural healing processes.

Have you ever worked with a vet homeopath or used homeopathic medicine with him, other pets, or yourselves?

Remedies like Nux vomica, Pulsatilla, Arsenicum, etc. can be very helpful in situations like this. If you don't already have a vet homeopath on Tripp's health care team, now may be a great time to start working with one.

Here's 9 in Germany (and a list of many others in Europe), but many of us also work virtually/worldwide:

Search for a Veterinarian | IAVH

For animal guardians: Search for a Veterinarian

iavh.org

Good luck!!

 

[trippsdogdad7774]

Thanks so much for your reply, Dr. Jeff! We are getting a bit concerned as Tripp is really wiped out and less responsive. His body feels heavier than when normally resting, and he’s just so out of it. Could the discharge and exhaustion be from an infection of some kind, not necessarily related to the withdrawal from the medication? The discharge is quite foul smelling as well, and he’s drooling quite a bit. We really hope he is able to recover a bit overnight. Answers to your questions below.

Do you know what the tests showed when you first brought him to the ER? - unfortunately we were not provided with any test results from the ER visit so we don’t have anything to compare the new test with. our vet was concerned at the massively high triglycerides level and a bit with the magnesium as well, but as I mentioned she believes the blood fat level is related to the detox infusion he got at the ER

How long had he been seizuring before the high temp (and how high was it)?? - he was seizing for about an hour which is how long it took from the onset to when he was in the clinic. the temp was over 40 degrees Celsius I believe (over 104 F), but I’m not exactly sure what the vet told us in the moment now, it was all a bit of a blur that night

When he was well, what was his very favorite thing to do or eat? - he loves being outside more than anything. it’s heart breaking to see him totally indifferent to going out right now. his favorite foods are potatoes, peas, duck strips, and bones. he’s been eating duck strips today which is encouraging

Is there anything that seems to motivate him or make him happy at this time? - nothing, I’m sorry to say. he is totally knocked out.

Does he respond to being outside or coming in? - when we took him out he just stood still and looked at us like he wanted to go back and rest more

Does he seem to like being petted and talked to? - absolutely, he’s a very affectionate cuddly dog and we’ve been next to him all day

You may want to think about getting him outside to be in contact with the earth as often as possible. - we’re doing our best here. he just wants to be laying down currently it seems

Lots of micro-engagements (just looking him in the eyes and telling him you love him or taking him outside, or a super special treat, or...) every few hours will help re-activate his natural healing processes. - we are doing this constantly for sure

Thank you for the homeopathic recs, we will look into these. just praying he perks up by tomorrow

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Could the discharge and exhaustion be from an infection of some kind, not necessarily related to the withdrawal from the medication?

Theoretically, yes.

Great work with lying near him and petting him! The only tweaks might be to let him lie outside and play happy music (to help get you into a positive mindset).

Petting + a healing intention works like "magic".

 

[trippsdogdad7774]

Hi Dr. Jeff. We have a call with you in one hour. Calling your attention to this as it will be very relevant for our discussion. This developed into toxic epidermal necrosis which is a rare side effect of the anti-seizure phenobarbital medication we were directed to give our dog after his poisoning which involved seizures. The last five days have been an absolute nightmare but Tripp is stabilizing slowly. We will seek your guidance on the immediate next steps as well as his long-term recovery.

The mucosal membranes on the surface of his body all began to break down, it was not an infection at the root of the symptoms above. Thankfully it seems it did not reach his stomach or intestines, but it did move partway down his throat. He has been on a feeding tube since Thursday and is currently on two antibiotics, a stomach antacid/protection medication, they have stopped his anti-fever medication now, and tonight they plan to start him on prednizone to calm his immune system which is still in overdrive. He has lost all of the pads on all four of his paws. His spirits are good, his energy has improved daily. We know he can recover from this even though it's obviously a serious situation. The clinic is waiting on results from a tissue sample test they hope will tell them with certainty that this is a reaction to his medication and not an "autoimmune" condition brought on by the medication or an underlying condition. To us, it seems quite clear that this is a reaction, but they are still doing due diligence to rule all other possibilities out.

Looking forward to our call, thank you

 

[trippsdogdad7774]

Hi Dr. Jeff and vet team! Tripp is back home with us, which is such a huge victory. We are so happy and grateful. The plan moving forward is something we would really appreciate your guidance on.

The vets are guiding us that Tripp has the disease pemphigus vulgaris, a theorized autoimmune disease that targets the skin and mucosal membranes, that was possibly triggered by the phenobarbital drug he was given after the seizures that resulted from his poisoning. They immediately recommended a second immunosuppressant in addition to the cortisone he is already on, Azathioprine, and were prepared to start him on it immediately. We declined and asked for some time to consider this. Their thought is to have him on this second drug long-term, to their way of thinking for the rest of his life potentially, because they believe he will need it as a result of his "autoimmune" condition, and it is supposedly safer for long-term use than Prednisone. The prognosis with this disease is grim, with only 25% of sufferers living for more than one year after diagnosis.

We are of the mind that autoimmune conditions do not actually exist as confirmed by Anthony William, not for humans, not for animals. Tripp's symptoms are textbook TEN (toxic epidermal necrolysis/necrosis) symptoms which is a known rare side effect of phenobarbital. He has been perfectly healthy up to this point, and we do not believe we should rush to the opinion that he is now diseased.

Our goal would be to keep Tripp on the Prednisone for the minimum amount of time to be safe as he heals, and then to gradually reduce it and observe very closely, expecting his symptoms not to recur since the potential initial cause (phenobarbital) will not be present. We do not want him on medication for the rest of his life unless it is truly necessary to keep him healthy.

We would really appreciate your guidance on the above, and any additional insight to help him heal. We of course connect with him emotionally very frequently, we will get him out an on the Earth as much as possible while his footpads heal as he cannot walk without protection until they heal more fully, we will feed him whole natural foods as we always do and supplement with vitamin B12, vitamin C, zinc, barley grass juice powder, spirulina, Atlantic dulse, Cat's Claw, and Goldenseal (to help prevent infection).

He was also prescribed antibiotic, Synulox, and digestive protection against the prednisone, Vetgastril. To provide his full medication protocol. We were glad that he no longer needs pain medication as of today.

Thank you in advance for help with our unusual case!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Tripp is back home with us

Yay!! ?

Our goal would be to keep Tripp on the Prednisone for the minimum amount of time to be safe as he heals, and then to gradually reduce it and observe very closely, expecting his symptoms not to recur since the potential initial cause (phenobarbital) will not be present

What a beautiful and worthwhile goal!

It would be great if you could add a German vet homeopath to his health care team to help him get back to his usual happy and healthy self.

Search for a Veterinarian | IAVH

For animal guardians: Search for a Veterinarian

iavh.org

He's already got a great start with his loving family.

 

[trippsdogdad7774]

Thanks, Dr. Jeff! We are meeting with a homeopath on Saturday to discuss Tripp's case and get some guidance. He is healing well. We're still being directed to administer a relatively high dose of predisolone for him daily (37.5mg - he is roughly 60 pounds) until his wounds heal, but we have a sense that this high dosage is no longer needed since the acute situation caused by the initial medication is weeks behind us now. We would like to reduce as soon as possible, ideally now.

The vet's thinking is that if this is an autoimmune case (which we know to be false since autoimmune disorders are a misnomer) the immune suppression will help him heal, but we know that this steroid can potentially slow wound healing and has other side effects with longer-term use. We'll meet with the vets again later this week to discuss the path forward, but any thoughts from this team would be greatly appreciated. We understand that this decision rests with us in conversation with our vet, but with your experience if there's any insight you're willing to offer it would help to supplement our perspective.

Much gratitude!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

It's fantastic to hear that Tripp is healing so well!

Thanks for keeping us updated.

 

[trippsdogdad7774]

Thanks, Dr. Jeff. Any thoughts on the reduction of steroids?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Any thoughts on the reduction of steroids?

We understand that this decision rests with us in conversation with our vet, but with your experience if there's any insight you're willing to offer it would help to supplement our perspective.

Less is more IMHO. Let's see what your vet (and your intuition) says.

 

[trippsdogdad7774]

Thanks, Dr. Jeff. My intuition says it's already time to reduce and to be honest we're on that path already. We'll see what the vet says and how she reacts to us getting a bit ahead of schedule on it...

Excited for our homeopathy appointment on Saturday, will let you know how it all turns out! Appreciate your support.

 

[Dr. Christina]

I totally agree with starting to reduce the dose, especially since you will be getting homeopathic support quickly.

What is the name of your homeopath? Please let us know a report on how hour intitial appoint resonates with you both.

Dr. christina

 

[trippsdogdad7774]

Hi Dr. Christina and Dr. Jeff, thank you for your responses!

We have one question. We are reducing the prednisolone and want to do so carefully to avoid causing any stress on Tripp's system. After twice daily injections at the clinic for one week straight, Tripp was at 37.5mg daily for six days, and we have now reduced to about 22mg daily.

How fast is too fast? Should we stay at 22mg daily for a few days before reducing further? What is a reasonable schedule until he is fully weaned off? Guidance online varies. We'd appreciate your thoughts!

And one additional brief question - they have been guiding us to a stomach protection fluid (administered 2x daily) to shield his stomach and intestines from any harsh effects of the steroids. It has aluminum hydroxide in it, and we'd like to discontinue as soon as possible. When is the dosage low enough to be safe to give him the prednisolone with food and without this protective fluid?

Our homeopath's name is Dr. Nicola Coutinho; she is an Indian national working in Hamburg, Germany (near us). Our initial consultation with her was very positive. She recommended a single dose of 4 tablets of C 200 of nux vomica for Tripp to help his system balance after several poison exposures and a good amount of pharmaceuticals. She doesn't believe he requires more at this time due to overall stability and healing progress. We plan to administer this week.

Thank you very much!

 

[trippsdogdad7774]

Hi Team, we never got a response on the above and we proceeded as we felt right, but I'd love any guidance on how to help Tripp totally recover from everything he's been through.

He's currently off of all meds and healing, but his energy levels are still not back to normal and he's much more gassy than is typical for him. He has taken two doses of 4 globules of nux vomica 200c, and is on a healing diet with fruits, vegetables, raw meat, dried meat, and supplements.

We appreciate your thoughts on any additional helpful remedies, behavioral tools, etc., thanks!

 

[Dr. Christina]

You all are doing great on this healing journey. Patience is critical. Keep a super positive attitude since you are moving in the right direction. Wait to see if the Nux helps. pay attention to the supplements. Use your intuition to see if one of them is causing the gas. Experiment with not using one food, or one supplement for a few days to see if that helps. if the gassiness is not bothering him, then just see if it passes.

This is a good time to work with an animal intuitive if you are not able to hear what he thinks he needs.Even though we are in cancer month, Eleni's talk next week (13th) addresses a lot of this need for just being present, as do many of our other talks.

check out some of the flower essence companies for the energy and the gas, as well.

DR. Christina