My Bernese Mountain dog Siren and her brother Murphy had bloodworm done for regular checks. They both came back positive on a lyme test so we did the C6 test and they both came back around 265. Other numbers were SDMA 14, Creatinine 1.3, BUN 30 which are high normal? The vet said these numbers are concerning in a young dog. He suggested a renal complex of Ledum 1M, and Lyme Formula Concentrated all for 3 months then rerun the bloodworm and urine test. Also suggested we could try ozone therapy. If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it. Neither of the dogs has lyme symptoms and they are 3 years old. Thanks
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Lyme disease
- Thread starter Whitwelch
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2018
- Messages
- 326
Dear Whitney,
Let's review Lyme disease a bit; I will address your specific concerns at the end.
The tick borne diseases, particularly Lyme disease, are treated far more often than is necessary. The conventional group of internal medicine specialists, the Academy of Veterinary Internal Medicine (AVIM), has issued consensus statements about many veterinary topics, including one regarding Lyme disease diagnosis, treatment and prevention:
This is quite a long and technical statement. It is worth pointing out to your conventional or holistic vet, as both groups tend to put a lot more faith in the significance of various tests than do the internal specialists who have extensively studied the disease.
The AVIM specialists do NOT recommend treating dogs solely on the basis of a positive Lyme test. Dogs with a positive Lyme test are checked for protein in the urine to check for Lyme nephropathy, a potentially serious involvement of the kidneys. If a Lyme positive dog has protein in the urine, OR has symptoms associated with Lyme disease (joint pain, depression, appetite loss) the AVIM recommends treatment with antibiotics; for one month if the symptoms are joint pain, for longer (and often with other medications) if there is kidney involvement.
Most internal medicine and immunology specialists DO NOT recommend the quantitative C6 titer for diagnosis. It does not provide any useful information which is not obtained with a positive or negative 3DX or 4DX test, as titers naturally fluctuate in Lyme positive dogs. A dog with a high titer may be combatting a challenge by the Lyme organism, or it may just have a strong immune response to Lyme. In either case, the only thing that is significant is if the dog is showing signs consistent with Lyme disease: shifting leg lameness, depression, and often decreased appetite.
Note that a positive test for Lyme disease, on its own, does not indicate a reason to treat. The AVIM specialists also do not uniformly recommend vaccination for Lyme disease. Previous studies note that 30% of dogs with Lyme nephropathy were previously vaccinated. The AVIM very strongly endorses tick control as the best means of prevention of tick borne disease. I personally encourage safe and gentle herbal flea and tick control, along with the best possible diet to strengthen the immune system.
In my own practice I treat symptomatic Lyme positive dogs with various homeopathic remedies, depending on their symptoms. The only case of Lyme nephropathy that I have seen so far was in a patient who was positive for Lyme for three years, and was having no problems. The owner took the dog to her local vet for a nail trim, and was pressured to give a Lyme vaccination, despite the fact that the dog was Lyme positive. A month later she came back to me because the dog was lame and urinating excessively; he was now in end stage kidney disease.
A urinalysis is very important in a Lyme positive dog to be sure that we have as much information as possible so that we can optimise our treatment. If it is difficult to get a first morning urine, leave your dog with the vet for the day so a sample can be collected. The most important indicator in Lyme nephropathy, protein in the urine, will still be present in urine collected later in the day.
There is no one remedy which is effective for Lyme disease. I have used a number of remedies, among them Lyme nosode, Berberis, and Eupatorium perf; the remedy is always chosen for the individual patient. Most patients respond very well and do not need antibiotic treatment. Clients may not want to use homeopathy, so if a client prefers antibiotics, I will prescribe them, after explaining the potential negative effects of antibiotics.
I do try to optimize immune system function in my patients who have chronic diseases such as Lyme. I use constitutional homeopathic prescribing and nutritional supplements for this. I give my own Lyme positive dogs non-GM, non-BGH colostrum daily as an immune modulator. I recommend other supplements to enhance immune function, such as omega fatty acids, vitamin C and vitamin E together, flavonoids, etc, on a case by case basis. I also use other immunostimulating foods such as mushroom polysaccharides, green tea, and Echinacea in certain cases. It is ideal to work with an holistic vet to determine the best choices for your individual pet and their needs.
In conclusion, I would not treat dogs who has no symptoms, unless it was important to their person. It does not make sense, either conventionally or holistically. It is always a good idea to maximize immune function, and that is best done through a healthy diet and lifestyle, and judicious use of supplements.
As a side note, some vets and doctors use combinations of homeopathic medicines with other medicines. Such medicines are not included in homeopathic pharmacopeia, and as they are not, they are not recognised by the FDA. The use of these complex medicines is part of why the FDA has been attempting to over-regulate the use of homeopathic medicines, as some of these complex medicines (unlike true homeopathic medicines) can have untoward side effects.
You mention using Ledum 1M for 1 month. I would not suggesting using any 1M homeopathic medicine for a month. A 1M potency will typically have a duration of action of several weeks, and no 1M potency should be given without careful observation of the patient's response and adjustment of the dose as appropriate. Perhaps they intended to do that after the first dose? However, what were the indications for giving such a high potency of Ledum in the first place?
The Jing Tang product, Lyme Formula Concentrated, is certainly used by TCVM practitioners as part of a treatment for Lyme disease. However, your dogs are showing no signs of Lyme disease, so how is this appropriate?
Regarding the lab tests for the pups, were these all done after a 12 hour fast? If not, then they could be significantly affected by diet, especially as both dogs are raw fed.
Lastly, and only referable to these dogs, your pups' mum was positive for Lyme disease at the same age as they are, while she was pregnant with them. She has never shown any signs of Lyme, and whelped and raised 10 pups easily in a Lyme positive state. No, I did not run an SDMA, but her BUN and creatinine and urine parameters are, and have always been, completely normal.
At the end of the day, you need to decide what treatment plan - or lack thereof - works for YOU.
Do consider my comments above, but decide what will give you peace of mind.
Stay well,
Sara
Let's review Lyme disease a bit; I will address your specific concerns at the end.
The tick borne diseases, particularly Lyme disease, are treated far more often than is necessary. The conventional group of internal medicine specialists, the Academy of Veterinary Internal Medicine (AVIM), has issued consensus statements about many veterinary topics, including one regarding Lyme disease diagnosis, treatment and prevention:
This is quite a long and technical statement. It is worth pointing out to your conventional or holistic vet, as both groups tend to put a lot more faith in the significance of various tests than do the internal specialists who have extensively studied the disease.
The AVIM specialists do NOT recommend treating dogs solely on the basis of a positive Lyme test. Dogs with a positive Lyme test are checked for protein in the urine to check for Lyme nephropathy, a potentially serious involvement of the kidneys. If a Lyme positive dog has protein in the urine, OR has symptoms associated with Lyme disease (joint pain, depression, appetite loss) the AVIM recommends treatment with antibiotics; for one month if the symptoms are joint pain, for longer (and often with other medications) if there is kidney involvement.
Most internal medicine and immunology specialists DO NOT recommend the quantitative C6 titer for diagnosis. It does not provide any useful information which is not obtained with a positive or negative 3DX or 4DX test, as titers naturally fluctuate in Lyme positive dogs. A dog with a high titer may be combatting a challenge by the Lyme organism, or it may just have a strong immune response to Lyme. In either case, the only thing that is significant is if the dog is showing signs consistent with Lyme disease: shifting leg lameness, depression, and often decreased appetite.
Note that a positive test for Lyme disease, on its own, does not indicate a reason to treat. The AVIM specialists also do not uniformly recommend vaccination for Lyme disease. Previous studies note that 30% of dogs with Lyme nephropathy were previously vaccinated. The AVIM very strongly endorses tick control as the best means of prevention of tick borne disease. I personally encourage safe and gentle herbal flea and tick control, along with the best possible diet to strengthen the immune system.
In my own practice I treat symptomatic Lyme positive dogs with various homeopathic remedies, depending on their symptoms. The only case of Lyme nephropathy that I have seen so far was in a patient who was positive for Lyme for three years, and was having no problems. The owner took the dog to her local vet for a nail trim, and was pressured to give a Lyme vaccination, despite the fact that the dog was Lyme positive. A month later she came back to me because the dog was lame and urinating excessively; he was now in end stage kidney disease.
A urinalysis is very important in a Lyme positive dog to be sure that we have as much information as possible so that we can optimise our treatment. If it is difficult to get a first morning urine, leave your dog with the vet for the day so a sample can be collected. The most important indicator in Lyme nephropathy, protein in the urine, will still be present in urine collected later in the day.
There is no one remedy which is effective for Lyme disease. I have used a number of remedies, among them Lyme nosode, Berberis, and Eupatorium perf; the remedy is always chosen for the individual patient. Most patients respond very well and do not need antibiotic treatment. Clients may not want to use homeopathy, so if a client prefers antibiotics, I will prescribe them, after explaining the potential negative effects of antibiotics.
I do try to optimize immune system function in my patients who have chronic diseases such as Lyme. I use constitutional homeopathic prescribing and nutritional supplements for this. I give my own Lyme positive dogs non-GM, non-BGH colostrum daily as an immune modulator. I recommend other supplements to enhance immune function, such as omega fatty acids, vitamin C and vitamin E together, flavonoids, etc, on a case by case basis. I also use other immunostimulating foods such as mushroom polysaccharides, green tea, and Echinacea in certain cases. It is ideal to work with an holistic vet to determine the best choices for your individual pet and their needs.
In conclusion, I would not treat dogs who has no symptoms, unless it was important to their person. It does not make sense, either conventionally or holistically. It is always a good idea to maximize immune function, and that is best done through a healthy diet and lifestyle, and judicious use of supplements.
As a side note, some vets and doctors use combinations of homeopathic medicines with other medicines. Such medicines are not included in homeopathic pharmacopeia, and as they are not, they are not recognised by the FDA. The use of these complex medicines is part of why the FDA has been attempting to over-regulate the use of homeopathic medicines, as some of these complex medicines (unlike true homeopathic medicines) can have untoward side effects.
You mention using Ledum 1M for 1 month. I would not suggesting using any 1M homeopathic medicine for a month. A 1M potency will typically have a duration of action of several weeks, and no 1M potency should be given without careful observation of the patient's response and adjustment of the dose as appropriate. Perhaps they intended to do that after the first dose? However, what were the indications for giving such a high potency of Ledum in the first place?
The Jing Tang product, Lyme Formula Concentrated, is certainly used by TCVM practitioners as part of a treatment for Lyme disease. However, your dogs are showing no signs of Lyme disease, so how is this appropriate?
Regarding the lab tests for the pups, were these all done after a 12 hour fast? If not, then they could be significantly affected by diet, especially as both dogs are raw fed.
Lastly, and only referable to these dogs, your pups' mum was positive for Lyme disease at the same age as they are, while she was pregnant with them. She has never shown any signs of Lyme, and whelped and raised 10 pups easily in a Lyme positive state. No, I did not run an SDMA, but her BUN and creatinine and urine parameters are, and have always been, completely normal.
At the end of the day, you need to decide what treatment plan - or lack thereof - works for YOU.
Do consider my comments above, but decide what will give you peace of mind.
Stay well,
Sara
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2021
- Messages
- 589
Wow, terrific post, Dr. Sara! Now to just get them all to pay attention. DO NOT TREAT unless there is demonstrable need! DO NOT misuse homeopathy! DO feed the best possible diet, full of raw and nutritious factors. Lyme is NOT a death sentence, nor even a problem.
Bravo, lady....
Bravo, lady....
Thank you so much for all this great information. I think both Dana and I knew all this but needed reassurance that we are doing the right things for the pups. Siren has always had a hard time relaxing which I think might be why the vet thinks she is actually having symptoms of Lyme. The Ledum that he wanted us to give was 1 pill 3 times a day for 3 days, and only repeat it once a month for 2 more months. But again, if doggies have no symptoms, we don't need to do this. So the Lyme formula Concentrated we don't need to give either. Both Siren and Murphy are healthy dogs so we will continue to do what we've been doing, which is feed raw, exercise them, brain games, no vaccines, and love them!! Dana and I are comfortable not treating them, its just difficult when you get conflicting information. We certainly value your opinion and appreciate all the help with these 2 fabulous pups! Thanks again
I agree Ginny, my last Berner tested positive for Lyme and because I didn't know any better, I put her on antibiotics for 30 days and its wrecked her healthy immune system. Since joining HA, I have learned so much about Lyme disease and now I know not to treat unless the dog has symptoms.
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