dog training thoughts from a non-trainer

[Dr. Jeff]

Hi again everyone-

Here are some of my recent thoughts after having worked with Archie (rescued 7/1/18) for ~6 months.

As many of you know, we are his fourth home and he understandably has some deep issues.

Most notably Fear Happiness.

The more he gets scared (up to his threshold where he just "shuts down") the more his tail wags and he smiles (while panting from anxiety).

Another big management problem with Archie is his territoriality.

Fear/reactivity and territoriality are not good traits to have for a calm and welcoming office dog!

After 2 months of barely correcting and building an awesome relationship with him, I found his problems getting worse, not better.

It was because of me.

I wasn't a strong enough leader.

Dogs need one and tend to "act out" if there isn't one.

They need to have a "benign despot in charge to prevent their acting out/being reactive and trying to fill the role of top dog (leader, alpha, etc.).

That's where the good relationship comes in.

Wolves in a pack and most dogs actually like being bossed around and told what to do.

That's actually a fundamental part of training and where the leadership piece comes in.

In a future post I will share the parts of being a good leader and fixing any bad behavioor.

But first you need a great relationship with your pup.

To me, relationship and leadership are the keys (along with communication and consistency).

Dr. Jeff

 

[jenbridwell]

To me, leadership is the most important thing- it's the solid foundation you need to build your stable dog. Unfortunately, many dog trainers have eschewed the role leadership plays on pet dogs' behavior in favor of an all positive + perfect management of all triggers while you teach the dog alternate behaviors. Mine is not a popular opinion in the current climate, but I strongly disagree with that model. To start, it's unreasonable to expect average pet owners who are working full time and raising a family to be able to take the time necessary to practice perfect management and execute enough repetitions, including proper progressions, to get a "finished" behavior. All in the name of not a single drop of rain on Fido's parade. I get calls from people all the time who are frustrated because after months of training with their front- walk harness, the dog still pulls, doesn't listen, and only gives behavior if a treat is present. Lots of positive reinforcement combined with clear and well- defined boundaries and good management including unemotional consequences for unwanted behavior provide a perfect balance for training results within a shorter (and less frustrating) time.

 

[beccak]

Good topic, I love dog training.
For me, what I have found to be important (still learning from each dog): person/dog relationship, structure, black and white expectations (no grey (not clear) areas), the dog knowing they are safe, knowing that each dog is an individual and training needs to be catered to each individual dog.
I am not a proponent of people being the "alpha" dog. I believe we still have a spiritual contract with the dog. When the dog became domesticated we said we would provide for the dog and they would work for us (humans). That work or job can be anything from police dog to companion dog, they all provide a valuable/treasured service.
Becca

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks for your lovely words Becca!

Your pups are fortunate to have you as their guardian!

Are any specific methods that you use to help the dog know they are safe?

Dr. Jeff

 

[beccak]

I have been thinking on this, and i could talk forever on this subject but I will keep it controlled
I feel it may come down to trust and intention.

The dog must know/sense they are safe from physical and emotional harm and from judgment on them. Not thoughts, but judgement.

Intention. You are the last person I would ever need to discuss with about intention. So, here are some good reminders
Dr John Upledger (creator of CranioSacral Therapy) said the shortest distance between two points is intention. He also has a nice chapter in one of his books about CST therapists having great results due to intention. This was due to his observations during his time using acupuncture: Acupuncturists who were positive and believed in their work had much better results than those acupuncturists that thought is was crazy.
I know I am preaching to the choir as I have witnessed how many times in my own dogs, your intention to dose?

The creator of the GSD (Max v Stephanitz) wrote a book which included a lot on training. Here are a few quotes from him on training that resonate with me. Although the book was published around 1925ish you can still apply them to today.

Trust is a necessity and obedience is the foundation of every training: both go hand in hand, and both are inseparable.

The dog can read from the glance of the trainer all that is necessary to know about the state of the trainer’s soul; he knows whether he is pleased or joking, in earnest or finding fault.

The trainer must first learn self control before he can control the dog.

Whoever can find the answer to the question “How shall I say this to my dog?” has won the game and can develop from his animal whatever he likes.


If I may take the liberty, you are a great veterinarian homeopath. A huge part of that has to be because you are a brilliant scientist, but for me, it is also because you are nurturing and compassionate. It would be hard for you to be a dominate authority in dogdom and dogs would see right though this. You can absolutely have expectations of them with those wonderful traits in tact and I think would make more sense to Archie. Take that with a huge grain of salt as I have never met Archie.
I would also like to say, that ever time we have a dog/client in a challenging situation, the behavior always gets worse before it gets better. You may be closer to a big step forward than you realize.
And, lastly, be as patient with yourself, with Archie, and with the two of you as a team as you are with your clients moving in a curative direction.
Becca

 

[jsqueglia]

Great topic! Dog training and behavior have been my passion for many, many years. Although, I have yet to work in the field professionally I have been able to help and guide many people and their dogs over the many (nearly 30)yrs as a vet tech and I currently teach the kids from one of our local 4H Dog Clubs. The Diggity Dogs. I teach the obedience portion of the program with my significant other and watching the relationships and transformation of these young dog and handlers has been truly rewarding.

I have learned from many Trainers and behaviorists over the years via Seminars and workshops and online webinars etc.. But...

My favorite Dog Trainer/Breeder and Behaviorist is Suzanne Clothier www.suzanneclothier.com Her website has many articles all written by her on the many issues and problems that arise with our canine family members.
I have attended many of her seminars, the most recent was this past spring and as always she does not disappoint.

Suzanne will be speaking at The Healthy Dog Expo in Albany, NY on April 6th (Dr Jean Dodd's will be there as well) and Suzanne is also doing a Workshop at the same venue on April 7th. Suzanne's Workshop topic is See the Dog: Asking the Elemental Questions
The Elemental Questions are: Hello?, Who are you?, How is this for you?, Can you...?, May I ...? and Can we...?

Check out Suzanne and the links to the rest of the Healthy Dog Expo here:
Speakers – Healthy Dog Expo

I think this is only the second year for this Expo. I hope to attend on Saturday. I missed it last year.
Maybe Dr Jeff and Dr Christina can speak next year?? I was excited to see that they are actively trying to get Vet Students to attend.

In answer to Dr Jeff's question about How do we make our dogs feel safe?

I believe it begins with Relationship and Trust(the foundation to all training), recognizing body language so that you can better understand the triggers that create the fear and anxiety. Be mindful of the dogs thresholds and work at a distance that is comfortable for the dog.Then help him with lots of Positive Reinforcement. I use lots of praise, toys and sometimes treats. It depends on the dog and the situation. I tend not to coddle the fearful dog or tell him it's Okay as you will be rewarding the fearfulness.

But I do recognize that the fear is real for him.

For example, I am really fearful of spiders! If you tell me I am foolish and I really need to just deal with the spider and you insist I get closer to the spider than I am comfortable... I will not like you and I will not trust you. And I will not feel safe. No Positive reinforcement of any kind will make a bit of difference to me.
For me... distance ,maybe some Rescue Remedy and some time... you might decrease my distance from the spider but most likely I will never pick it up. Another person with the same protocol might wind up loving Tarantulas.

So sometimes, we also have to accept an individuals limitations, likes and dislikes for who they are as an individual.

In Archie's case, from hearing his story, I suspect it will take some time. Go slow. Remember distance and Ask Archie the Elemental questions. You have done an awesome job with Archie and with Jen's help all will be well.

Jackie

 

[beccak]

Jackie, thank you so much for the information on the Healthy Dog Expo.
I use Suzanne Clothier's book/method for teaching jumping. We have had good results and a lot of fun using her program. I would be interested in seeing her.
I am also currently taking online classes from Dr Torraca and am really interested seeing her presentation.
I am not sure on the timing of the event but if I can swing it I would love to meet you
Becca

 

[jsqueglia]

Hi Becca,
I hope you get to see Suzanne in April. She's great!
I am not going to be able to do her workshop on Sunday as I am doing an afternoon Restorative Yoga and Reiki workshop that day.

I am ,however ,going to try to make the Expo on Saturday and will at least get to see her for her presentation.
A friend went to the Expo last year and really enjoyed it. I will be looking forward to Dr Torraca's presentation as well as Dr. Jean Dodd's.
Fingers crossed, I will be able to make it.
I have a landscape business and in April things are just starting to get in motion...

Another great trainer, I just watched his 2 webinars on Dog-Human Aggression, is Michael Shikashio from Mystic,CT He mentions Suzanne often and uses a lot of her techniques.
Hope to see you in Albany in April!

Jackie

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hi Jackie and Becca-

Wow, what a great discussion!

I'm so glad that I found it.

Thanks so much to both of you for the Archie ideas.

I am already implementing some of them and yes, you are so right Becca.

In some ways he is getting worse, more stubborn (he now refuses to sit and goes right into a "down" and won't get up) but overall, he's more and more awesome every day.

Thanks as well for the kind words, and I'm afraid you're right.

Part of his worsening is his seeing through my feeble attempts to be "tough" and "dominant".

If I was better at it, Archie probably wouldn't feel the need to protect the house, and especially my office (where he lies for many hours/day), so vociferously.

He comes across as a mean dog to non-dog people.

Everyone else sees his smile and wagging tail.

He's a sweetheart but also still scares people.

I expect to see a reduction in his reactivity after this weekend's dose of a homeopathic medicine.

I'll keep everyone posted (so far we've worked through some of his fears, a small ear tumor, canine flu, and inability to urinate).

Stay warm!

Dr. Jeff

PS-Thanks for alerting me of the Expo. It sounds great! I may try to get there to see y'all as well as to meet Deb (Toraca), Suzanne and see Jean.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hi again Jackie-

Here's my "take" on the excellent dog communication questions you posted:

The Elemental Questions are: Hello?, Who are you?, How is this for you?, Can you...?, May I ...? and Can we...?

It can take a long time to answer most of these questions.

I'm confident that Archie's next dose of Phos 200c (the only current remedy in my new rubric= mind-fear-happiness with) takes his training to the next level.

Here's the strategy I used for Archie.

It worked, and built an awesome bond between us (we both would do anything for the other)!

But it also backfired.

Here's what I did and how I would approach the situation next time.

The backstory:

We are his 4th home. In his last one police records show that he was either running free or was trapped in his crate amidst domestic violence.

The last straw was when he witnessed a stabbing!

Fortunately, the wonderful @jumstead1023 was the ACO (animal control officer) on duty.

She or @adria can tell you more about Rusty's (later Archie per @robinafolson ) next few weeks with Judy in her Hemlock Kennel.

While she went to court to get Rusty permanently removed from his scary home.

Judy mentioned Rusty during last June's Vitality and Balance using homeopathy event.

The final court date and judgement was the next Friday.

Judy won, making Rusty-Archie one of the first (the first?) successful emotional abuse cases in CT!!

This was a Friday and Archie came to live with Amy and I two days later.

His new #foreverhome.

I spent the first two months supporting, loving, guiding but not correcting him in any way.

The idea was to decrease his stranger-danger (I've also been using the term for decades).

He improved until we had him about 6-8 weeks and the "honeymoon" was over.

For anyone reading this who doesn't know, the rescue honeymoon period is when a new rescue dog is at his best behavior.

Trying to do everything possible to please you (as best they're able).

But that >95% biddability went away by late summer when he started making decisions on his own.

Don't get me wrong, he's still one of the most biddable dogs I ever met but I gave him too much freedom those critical first two months.

How could I not give him whatever he wants.

He makes us all smile and laugh every day!

He even brought Vanya (our other dog who is from Poodle rescue) out of her shell and helped her learn the joys of being a dog.

Little things (HA!) like food, play and interactivity.

Vanya and Archie played vigorously and daily in the yard (and sometimes in the house).

Anyway, I just realized that I have to get back to riting te end of the Digestion, Diarrhea and Dysbiosis course so need to wrap up this post.

The bottom line now is that my goals for Archie have shifted from his service and office dog training when we both had the honor to present about the VBS (Vitality and Balance System) in the fall at Nicci's wonderful NorthPoint Pets in Cheshire.

I know now that he may be an awesome therapy and service dog in some situations, but not most.

Nor can he currently be the office dog and "ambassador of good will" that I still hope for.

I am still barely away from Archie (that is changing) and Amy is there most of the time when I am not.

He now stays with Amy when medium-big dogs and most people come to the office.

We practice "look at me" and stay in your "place" whenever he hears something and gets scared.

I know that with remedies traininig, love, support and more time he will he will continue to improve.

Dr. Jeff

Per Martha McCormick of TotoFit: "The best student ever!"

 

[jsqueglia]

Great work Dr Jeff!
Yes, those questions can take a while to answer and as training and trust progress they may be asked again and again.
I believe that Archie can be the office dog and ambassador of good will.
I don't know him well enough to know if he would be a good Therapy dog. I feel a lot of dogs are asked to do this important job and they are not necessarily suited to it but they do it for their handlers benefit. Just my opinion, I think Therapy work can be very hard work and stressful work for some dogs. There are dogs however that do excel at it.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. You have done a fantastic job with Archie.
I think that the changes you are seeing are normal.
Much like homeopathy, the symptoms have changed and it may be time for a new remedy.

My dogs are not rescue dogs and they have never been traumatized. However, I am currently working with the Stranger -Danger problem myself.
It has been an issue with 2 of my dogs for a while and I have not addressed the problem and used management in the house. I put them in a bedroom and let them out after the company has been there for a while and they have calmed down. For my dogs this has worked. It may not be recommended for all dogs. So not a general suggestion.

I found myself not going for walks during busy times at the places I usually walked and found myself not walking as often as I should.
I walk 3 dogs at one time.
Now enter ...2 yr old adolescent intact male.... well the behavior of the the whole pack has changed and we were headed in a bad direction....

So finally... I decided to stop managing and work on having my pack of 3, on leashes, behave in the face of Strangers on our walks.
I would never recommend working with all 3 at once but... I am just a tad crazy...lol!

I also might add that all three dogs together or separate can without incidence walk into a dog show with 3000 dogs and people and not say a peep, wind themselves through a crowd and settle into their crates without a problem.

But on a walk ....it's a whole different story. Dogs are very situational.

So, my remedy has been, instead of having my dogs Look at Me or Come Front, I allow my dogs to look at the scary situation and I QUICKLY mark(I use 'YES") and reward the behavior BEFORE the dogs barks, lunges or growls. It doesn't take long before they are glancing at the scary situation and looking right back at you for the treat. Timing is very important as it is easy to reward the bark, growl or lunge behavior. I have chosen wide open areas with lots of distance. We are making steady progress. Distance is key. How often I work the dogs and the dogs as Individuals will determine how quickly I will be able to decrease the distance and work towards the cure.

"We practice "look at me" and stay in your "place" whenever he hears something and gets scared."

While both of these behaviors are very useful...
We need to be mindful when asking for 'look at me' and 'stay in your place' that we are not asking our anxious or scared friend to look at us while the scary incident is behind them or approaching them. Yes, you want your friend to know that you have his back but..

For example... it's like having your best friend say to you,'Look at Me', as a person with a gun pointed at you is approaching you from behind. You probably won't feel safe.
The same is true for 'Place'. It's okay if place is in another spot away from the perceived danger but if 'Place' is in the perceived danger zone , he probably won't feel safe.

I am also working on my dogs self-rewarding and anxiety producing behaviors in the house as well. Like sitting on the couch and barking every time the neighbors drive in and out. The mail, UPS, FedEx trucks etc.. the squirrels that taunt them at the back door. These are behaviors in my situation that I still need to really think through as it is one thing when we are home but shy of crating them in our absence ... I haven't figured out if there is a reliable way of not having these behaviors repeat themselves? It's a work in progress.

Training never stops...

Just one more thing... Archie's Embark test.... my guesses are Pyrenean Shepherd, Bearded Collie, Briard ...can't wait to hear the results!

Have a great day! Happy Training!
Jackie

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks so much for your great post Jackie!

Funny that you mention the Pyr Shep because I was just discussing training of one and the awesome progress he has made after a remedy.

Diana (his guardian) is an accomplished trainer (and PhD economist!) and has competed with her pups for decades.

The two of us were also wondering about this since Archie and Jinn (Diana's pup) share many behavioral traits.

We'll know about Archie's lineage within the next few weeks...

Dr. Jeff

 

[jumstead1023]

I think you are doing a great job and it warms my heart to see him so happy.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks so much Judy!

Archie's behavior has turned the corner since his last remedy.

This is exciting to see, and confirms how wonderfully training works together with homeopathy.

Once his Embark results come back, I'll know more about what to expect and the best ways to work with him.

Dr. Jeff

 

[Dr. Jeff]

I shared this thread with a wonderful trainer (NH) client of mine, and here's what she said:

1. Don't worry about being the boss/leader/alpha. That's an outdated way of thinking. You don't need to put pressure on yourself to fill that role. A position statement by AVSAB on dominance theory (which goes in line with the idea of being a leader/alpha).

2. You mention Archie is getting worse and more stubborn. Dogs aren't stubborn, they simply don't know what you're asking. If he's lying down every time you ask him to sit, he thinks you're asking him to lie down. He's simply guessing at what you want. Dogs don't generalize like we do and they also don't learn like we do. He's also going to respond different to cues when he's stressed, relaxed, aroused, ect. I would simply practice your basic cues once a day. Practice them in a different place everyday. Then start behaving "differently" as you practice them (for example sit on the floor or clap your hands or turn your back to him when you ask him his cues.) If he does one wrong, simply go back to a lure or whatever way you were showing him what you wanted. Repeat a few times and fade the lure (do you use lure or marker?)

3. I recommend reading Patricia McConnell's book The Education of Will if you haven't already. It's a memoir of her life of trauma and how she related to her very fearful dog. She has worked through his fears of humans/dogs with her wonderful process.

4. I agree with the "Look at That" game that someone suggested. The importance is distance. Dogs have a threshold from which they can handle things up until they can't. You always want to work under threshold and manage to keep him under threshold. Grisha Stewart's BAT program (which you can google) is a similar method to Look at That and works under threshold. All are great resources.

5. I taught Lady to go between my legs when she's nervous. A "place" position is great, but only if the dog is comfortable with where the "place" position is. Observe what makes him most relaxed and turn that into a cue you can reinforce.

I could write forever about this haha. I hope these tips help. It sounds like Archie is extremely lucky to have found you guys!

Here's my reply:

1. As per the excellent AAVSB article (which I shared on the forum), dominance is very different than leadership. This statement was actually crafted in response to the Cesar Milan dominance-based training. "Rolling" or hanging a dog is not gentle, guiding leadership and is contraindicated in 99% of training.

I bet @beccak has other thoughts about this in relation to truly "serious" dogs.

2. Hmm. “Stubborn” (obstinate in the repertory) needs to be interpreted in context. For example, when training, if a dog knows what “sit” or “down” means, but doesn’t listen the first time, a simple “uh uh” (if they know that) or other way of showing your disappointment, will often get the desired response.

If I ask Archie to do something well and he looks away (anxiety?) or doesn’t respond, a simple “look at me” is often sufficient to get him to respond to the earlier command.

He knew what I wanted, but just did not comply (as with any teenager asked to do a chore).

3. Excellent, thanks! I requested this book from our library thanks to your recommendation.

Have a great weekend Kim, and thanks again.