Bleeding in unspayed dog

[LilF]

Blossom does not want to take food today so the bleeding is less I just worry about the cervix possibly closing. So I probably should have her checked which is going to mean another trip to that hospital and all the stress on her but the fact that she is refusing to eat concerns me.

 

[LilF]

I’m here at the hospital with Blossom and it appears they took a sample of the blood and said it looked really weird but she has no fever but the blood sample was full of white blood cells and very thick. They are going to do an ultrasound now the vet tech said she has not seen anything like this, so I may have to be thinking about options and of course her health is number one priority. So I guess the options may be the abortion shot , traditional spay, or an OSS spay but we have not imaged yet, but I am thinking about some decision I may have to make. Remember we had suspected she may have some medical problem, so maybe the procedure that takes the least amount of time which would be a spay would be safer? I suppose she could always get hormones replaced but anyway I just hope I make the right decisions. She could have pyometra, but they don’t know yet it could just be some other infection.

 

[LilF]

Blossom’s uterus is full of cysts so they want to do the full traditional spay today and because she has an infection they said if I do the OSS then there is a bigger chance for sepsis. On the other hand, I could go home and try and clear up the infection and then come back and do the OSS but I think I am leaning toward doing the full spay then and replace her hormones. Any thoughts? They said with a uterus full of sis this will probably keep happening.

 

[LilF]

I just thought of some thing is she going to lose her mothering behavior off her little stuffy toys even if she gets hormone replacement. It is her behavior that I love the most. She’s so precious when she does it I’m thinking maybe I should go home and try and clear up the infection so they could do the OSS and then it would preserve her mothering her little babies behavior.

 

[LilF]

@Dr. Sara I thought you said your dog had pyometra and they did an OSS at the same time. They are talking here that my dog has her uterus full of cysts, and she does have some infection but they are saying the OSS is dangerous for her. I am grieving now because I don’t want her to lose her mothering behavior doing a full spay, but they said she’s at risk for sepsis if they tried and OSS my vet said that may be because her uterus is cystic and I biotics would not penetrate to clear it up and then do the OSS so I remember reading a post of yours that said your dog had pyometra and you did the removal of the uterus but did the OSS so how come you were able to do it but these people can’t and their specialists I don’t want her to lose the mothering behavior. I’ve said that I guess five times already now it is just so sweet of her.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Sorry about Blossom's continued health challenges.

Any thoughts?

Based on what you have written and the ultrasound report it sounds like a full spay is indicated.

You'll definitely be able to deal with any issues that may result.

 

[LilF]

They did say it was a low-grade infection and medical management to see if it clears up and then do an OSS would be OK to do

 

[Dr. Christina]

For everyone, here is a great example of why diagnostics can be very useful - and why it is good to get pet insurance at a young age.

Dr. Christina

 

[GinnyW]

FWIW, I would agree with the full spay here. We can't tell why the cystic condition has occurred, for sure, but it's not something you want to worry about her whole life. I think she will be healthier and stronger without the burden of a whippy reproductive tract. Tell you what: If it were I - personally, not just my dog - I'd do the spay, too. She'll be fine, and have a happy life. But I'm not the doc....

 

[LilF]

I’m going to call one of the other reproductive doctors with a lot of experience and I’m going to ask him about this also. Because I may as well just bring her in earlier for a spay instead of pumping all these antibiotics and nonsteroidals into her and then do the spay so I think what you are saying is the ovaries may be whippy as you say, funny word. Because from what I read, the sis were hormonal I’m going to put a call in today and see what else I can learn from them. You are right I do not want to worry about this her entire life.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

A repro. consult is a great idea. FWIW, I agree with Ginny.

 

[LilF]

I gave Blossom some pulsatilla (I think Dr. Jeff mentioned this at some point) but after texting the homeopath about her pyometra he said to put 2 pellets in 1/2 cup of water, shake or stir (I smash the pellets between 2 spoons and put in the water) and to give a few drops every 2 hours for 4 doses. I did that today but she is still taking the antibiotics and Galiprant. I guess I don't know if this is to replace the medication but he did not say to stop the meds. He said it would help to correct the imbalance that caused this I think. Blossom's bloodwork the day before this started last saturday showed improvement in her liver enzymes (ALT) that was elevating since June. The potassium and Na:K ratio was also normalized. Her resting cortisol went from a 2 to a 3.8. I like the fact it is going up some because maybe the Addison's diagnosis is not so likely anymore. She also drank water in the past week. She never drank water since I adopted her a year ago but I noticed water level was down the week of the symptoms I note below. The globulin was up (I wonder if that was a clue about the pyometra) I went back about 7 days to note I had emailed my vet that she was sniffing her food before taking her usual deep dive into eating it. She was also rustling up carpets and turning over her beds. Then the globulin---the repro doctor did not think the globulin 4.4 was a big deal but to me it seemed to match what was going on in her uterus--inflammation and infection. So her BEAM foretold an impending problem. I also emailed my vet a few days before the holiday and even suggested what if she is getting pyometra . Then the holiday hit and that is exactly what it was. INTUITION? So I don't know if the homeopathy has helped her. I was also giving her adrenal support powder and denamarin. With the new homeopath I gave her 1 dose silicia on July 11. On August 7, 8, 9th I gave one dose of Lyssen. Then nothing until now when I gave her the pulsatilla. I should schedule another appointment when I get the reports back from the hospital visit last tuesday. She will be having surgery but the repro vet with experience had not returned my call so I left another stern but friendly message that "Blossom is NOT out of the woods" and I need to discuss OSS vs full spay and the matters Ginny brought up about the repro tract, ovaries etc... I want his case experience and his info will be pivotal but all in all I guess I am leaning toward full spay with hormone replacement.

 

[LilF]

Good question!! This is something I've pondered for a long time. What do you think Lil?

I think not processing things, and not just the big things but the little things too, is like spending your money on something and then never using it or enjoying it. If it weren't for processing experiences, nobody moves farther along the path----ducks versus eagles....Processing things is the gift inside the box, it gives perspective, especially after marinating a few years, as in broken relationships---that can lead to richer connections or reconnections. I do know people who NEVER think like this but feel there is no texture to people who just live more by their 5 senses. Even with a computer, isn't the guts, brains of it called a "processor" that makes it all work and make sense out of the smallest bytes of information.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks for sharing Lil.

Since you mentioned ducks, I thought you might enjoy something I just received:

 

[LilF]

This is the funniest thing I have seen in a very long time. I am going to write it down in my favorite sayings book. It gave me a huge belly laugh yesterday---much needed!!

 

[LilF]

I’m going to call one of the other reproductive doctors with a lot of experience and I’m going to ask him about this also. Because I may as well just bring her in earlier for a spay instead of pumping all these antibiotics and nonsteroidals into her and then do the spay so I think what you are saying is the ovaries may be whippy as you say, funny word. Because from what I read, the sis were hormonal I’m going to put a call in today and see what else I can learn from them. You are right I do not want to worry about this her entire life.

I just spoke to one of the experienced Repro vets today. He sees no problem doing an OSS for Blossom and cannot think of any ovarian, hormonal problems on the horizon from this pyometra occurrence. He said they do a lot of traditional spays and maybe 3-4 OSS's a month but he said more and more people are catching on. He said Blossom should not lose her mothering behaviors--he asked if she does those outside of her heat and I said yes she does. He said that if we decide to remove ovaries later we could do laporascopically which would be less of a surgical burden. He sees no reason we could not do an OSS if her pyo clears. She goes next thursday for an USound to see how she is doing. He said we should do surgery mid Oct to mid Nov before her next heat in December. He also said they use enuran (spelling?) to replace estrogen if requested to do so, also helps with incontinence if that is a problem. So I have some time to think about this. He said the OSS benefits are seen mainly with larger dogs. I asked what his opinion was, not an advisory at all, he said his terrier is spayed. So that is the skinny. I might also add Blossom has done well in the car again, I took her for a ride each day and today we just went joy riding and she loved it. She has made a lot of gains since this pyometra set in, drank water, rode in the car, improved blood work.....I just wish I knew what turned it all around---maybe homeopathy----but could also be supplements. Her resting cortisol was better but she still walks slowly. I asked the doctor if she needed an echo because her clinical presentation has been a mystery with cheek puffing at times and slow walking but he said they typically don't do it unless there is some evidence on the xray or sounds heard on auscultation. So there it is....any thoughts?

 

[LilF]

I am still very confused on these matters and choices. I did talk to the Repro vet and my regular vet. The Repro vet said his own dog is spayed. They do about 3-4 OSS's a month and the rest of the people want spays.. I am very confused: I could get her ovaries removed with laproscopy. 2. I could remove her uterus and ovaries that would be a big incision--my vet said no big deal but I thought that caused more pain. I guess, but he did not say this, it would prevent uterine cancer? I could do the OSS and take the chance they might leave uterine tissue and cause another pyometra but this hospital is specialty so don't think that would happen.
The hormone replacement is incuran--that is estriol, a weak estrogen--does it do ANY good at all except for incontinence? I thought estradiol is the physiological active hormone for anti aging---is that true for animals as it is for humans?She would not get that replaced. In humans estriol is protective for cancer--estradiol is the one that may cause problems so what kind of increased risk for cancer would a dog on estriol have---if like for humans it would be protective.

What do most people do? Do they remove the uterus AND the ovaries?... I also wonder how much longer the OSS and removal of uterus and ovaries surgery is compared to the laporascopic removal of ovaries only.

I have to decide to get an appointment within the window of time before her next heat. The opinions on the Facebook group is contradictory. What are the facts? Thanks... I did watch Dr. Sara's series but don't think it answered the questions above.

 

[GinnyW]

Yep, you need some info....Ideally you would want her to retain at least one ovary. This will keep her producing hormones and being a "normal" female. This is what an OSS does. The uterus is removed, so no risk of pyometra, no way to be fertile, no bleeding or other mess. If she retains an ovary, there will be no need for hormone supplementation at all, ever - well, maybe later, when she starts to show signs of aging, but this has nothing to do with present choices. The OSS is no more invasive than a full spay, and just requires a little care to leave the ovary in place. The incision should be pretty much the same for either procedure. The uterus is a discreet organ, so there is little risk of leaving any "bits" of it behind.

The procedures are comparable in complexity in the hands of a competent surgeon; the incisions are not all that dissimilar either. Either way, she will be knocked out, the procedure done, and the recovery from the anesthetic comparable. So, the "hard" part is about the same no matter what is done.

Bear in mind that cancer anywhere in the body is a sign of an imbalance in the life force, and is not related to organs "left" in the body or not. Removing parts does nothing to "fix" the insults which can cause cancer; if the life force is impaired enough to allow cancer it will come up somewhere if there is a strong predilection, although the body frequently will "park" the cancer in the least vital organ or area. You can't remove them all - but you CAN support great health and vitality.

So: go for the OSS, and you will have a darn near whole dog whose hormonal function is normal and whose health is thereby supported for life. It's easy, in the right hands, not risky, nothing "left over", no downside now or in the future. OK, got it?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

no risk of pyometra,

Stump pyometra occurs only if enough of the uterus remains. However, as Ginny says, this should not be a problem if a surgical specialist does the OSS.

Have you watched Dr. Sara's great course on neutering that dives deep into these details?

 

[LilF]

Yep, you need some info....Ideally you would want her to retain at least one ovary. This will keep her producing hormones and being a "normal" female. This is what an OSS does. The uterus is removed, so no risk of pyometra, no way to be fertile, no bleeding or other mess. If she retains an ovary, there will be no need for hormone supplementation at all, ever - well, maybe later, when she starts to show signs of aging, but this has nothing to do with present choices. The OSS is no more invasive than a full spay, and just requires a little care to leave the ovary in place. The incision should be pretty much the same for either procedure. The uterus is a discreet organ, so there is little risk of leaving any "bits" of it behind.

The procedures are comparable in complexity in the hands of a competent surgeon; the incisions are not all that dissimilar either. Either way, she will be knocked out, the procedure done, and the recovery from the anesthetic comparable. So, the "hard" part is about the same no matter what is done.

Bear in mind that cancer anywhere in the body is a sign of an imbalance in the life force, and is not related to organs "left" in the body or not. Removing parts does nothing to "fix" the insults which can cause cancer; if the life force is impaired enough to allow cancer it will come up somewhere if there is a strong predilection, although the body frequently will "park" the cancer in the least vital organ or area. You can't remove them all - but you CAN support great health and vitality.

So: go for the OSS, and you will have a darn near whole dog whose hormonal function is normal and whose health is thereby supported for life. It's easy, in the right hands, not risky, nothing "left over", no downside now or in the future. OK, got it?

Wow, this does cover everything. the one ovary way was never presented to me as an option. No uterus which has no purpose anyway and no chance of pyo. On some of the other sites people were saying if the surgeon leaves even the smallest bit of uterine tissue it could cause pyo and so could hormone replacement. I talked to my vet yesterday and he did encourage me to get the uterus removed, although his understanding of the benefits of keeping the hormones differ from mine, merely because he has not kept up with the info. He only remembers the one very messy pyo case he had and the terrible case of mammary cancer a dog died from. I told him to make a significant difference one would have to sterilize before the second heat cycle. I also told him there are plenty of other variables that could have caused that in the dog, xenoestrogens, environment, diet etc... I am going to a specialty hospital. It is the only Repro clinic around and not corporate owned (my own opinion is that I see a diminishment of quality once a place gets bought out. I think I am ready to make the appointment for Oct 9th if I can get it AND if her pyo checks out ok on thursday. My vet said she should be ok with not getting a reinfection by her spay date UNLESS the original infection has not cleared. She finishes her treatment next tuesday. I don't know if I shared the xray results when she was there over Labor Day----AND this is why I ALWAYS request they get sent out to a radiologist. The attending vet told me all was good with the xray. Here is what the xray said from the radiologist... And I want to know if it changes the calculus for her surgical risk... Her BNP was normal btw.. Xray read: "Diffuse bronchial pattern suggestive of {the potential for }lower airway disease" It says "clinically normal" (do they mean the DOG is clinically normal? Because she walks slow and cheek puffs sometimes. The xray reading also said mild respiratory disease (the attending vet said her antibiotics may take care of this). Xray said no pneumonia or evidence of heart failure. I talk to the homeopath next week. I told him there have been major changes both good (now she goes joy riding in the car and you should see bolt to the car, spin, turn and leap toward it) and not so good (pyo)