Don't know why this site does not allow me to attach the pics I took of JJ after his Acupuncture treatment yesterday. JJ is 14 plus shar pei mix with multiple problems but WAS holding his own. His mobility has been the major problem but with adequan and the addition of Vetri Disc he was even walking 10-15 min in the heat some days. Took him to the holistic vet who did acupuncture and yesterday at supper, when he is eating, his legs are splaying and shaking terribly and he is sagging down. I am so *&^()(* at her ...does she not know what she is doing??? How does this happen? Have you ever had a result that is worse than when the dog came in? I emailed her a couple videos that this site would not accept. I am very distressed seeing him and I cannot look at him. The acupuncture she did on the other dog Gabby, also 14 Shar Pei mix seemed pretty good. But with JJ, the poor guy doesn't need this setback. For a couple months now JJ had not been sagging when standing to eat or splaying his legs out. Soon as he ate supper yesterday after his treatment, he was terrible. Is this vet a quack? I cannot consent to acupuncture or any treatment that the vet cannot do consistently right to help the dog. The vet is lazy and she better get us in right away to correct this and stop the dogs suffering. Also when I ask her questions about supplements she doesn't know...she didn't know what PQQ was for cognitive issues. Her lack of outside reading on her own time shows. She doesn't like to do any learning outside of her work day. To stay on point, what do I do about this situation with JJ and would it resolve on its own. Don't know if she would work an extra hour to help fix what she broke. Losing faith in some holistic actions like acupuncture
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Acupuncture gone wrong
- Thread starter LilF
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JJ should resolve on his own, and the last thing he needs is more interference right now. If you had been working with a homeopath there might have been a remedy choice that could help a bit, but I think he needs rest, love, and some light massage. Also keep your own attitude free of negatives for a while - perhaps play with him gently, offering treats, maybe snuffling, lying outside in the grass - does he like car rides? Stuff to get him interested and empowered... His negatives may resolve into a much more positive state - this may have been just a bit too strong for his system all at once. Save your own thoughts for when you are not working with him; be positive.
@GinnyW Hi and thanks ..... you can tell I am a wreck huh?
So if I hear from the vet I should NOT go in for a correction then? What about laser? Decisions are so hard. She often does not respond for days anyway. Nobody likes seeing their dog take a step back when their condition improved and then someone trusted derails it. What scares me is I had a dog back in 2013 who had an adjustment (different vet) and after that till he died I had to help him up every time, he could not get up himself anymore. Does he like car rides?? You Bet he does, the ONLY thing he likes. I have never used the snuffle mat with him so will try it... I assumed he would have trouble figuring out the objective but that is no reason to have not tried it already. Will try it today with him. He loves to eat treats too... Thank you Ginny!!
So if I hear from the vet I should NOT go in for a correction then? What about laser? Decisions are so hard. She often does not respond for days anyway. Nobody likes seeing their dog take a step back when their condition improved and then someone trusted derails it. What scares me is I had a dog back in 2013 who had an adjustment (different vet) and after that till he died I had to help him up every time, he could not get up himself anymore. Does he like car rides?? You Bet he does, the ONLY thing he likes. I have never used the snuffle mat with him so will try it... I assumed he would have trouble figuring out the objective but that is no reason to have not tried it already. Will try it today with him. He loves to eat treats too... Thank you Ginny!!
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@ChristineL I had about 3 assisi loops with no problem. The last one I got looked all disheveled and wondered if it caused my dogs sarcoma. The sarcoma was right where the battery pack rests on his chest. It developed within 2-3 weeks of use several times per day. I cannot prove obviously but the sarcoma is exactly where the Assisi loop battery rests and when I measured the EMF's of the battery pack with a meter it was through the roof. They need to shield the pack better. I was hoping to find another person's loop and compare readings to see if mine was indeed defective. This was our 3rd one. So I will not ever use it again on myself or another dog. I feel that something is wrong with JJ now with her treatment. I can make him happy but don't see how that fixes his leg splaying and sliding. Of course have not heard from the vet yet. I hope he improves. Worrisome. Thanks and I will try and take him for a walk now and see how he does
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Dear Lil,
I understand how upsetting this is to see.
Please realise that ANY treatment can have unintended adverse effects. They are uncommon with acupuncture, though they do occur. No vet can guarantee that a treatment will consistently help an individual patient, because each patient has their own idiosyncrasies and responses to treatment. I would certainly contact the vet because every vet needs and wants to understand how their treatment affects a patient
Acupuncture removes energy blocks in the body, and if the overall energy of the body is low, the patient can be weaker after acupuncture than they were before. This is why I use few points in super seniors (and a 14+ SharPei certainly qualifies as a super senior!) or dogs who are receiving their first treatment. I suspect this is what is happening with JJ. If he has poor proprioception in his hind legs, decreased strength will make him more likely to splay.
Work to help JJ feel happier and better in himself. You have had some excellent suggestions from Ginny and Christine regarding the snuffle mat and the happiness protocol. This will increase his energy. It is painful to watch our seniors age, and I understand your hurt and grief. I've been there myself, and have been the unintentional cause of discomfort to my own beloved seniors by misunderstanding their situation. We vets are only human, and despite my own intense continuing education, I can not always choose the perfect treatment for each patient.
It is entirely possible that the vet did everything properly and JJ had an unfortunate adverse response. Dogs are so sensitive to our emotions that you will help him most by focusing on helping him manage with his limitations.
Incidentally, PQQ (pyrroloquinolone quinone) is not used for cognitive dysfunction in dogs. I have found a few rat and mouse references, nothing for dogs.
I hope this helps,
Dr. Sara
I understand how upsetting this is to see.
Please realise that ANY treatment can have unintended adverse effects. They are uncommon with acupuncture, though they do occur. No vet can guarantee that a treatment will consistently help an individual patient, because each patient has their own idiosyncrasies and responses to treatment. I would certainly contact the vet because every vet needs and wants to understand how their treatment affects a patient
Acupuncture removes energy blocks in the body, and if the overall energy of the body is low, the patient can be weaker after acupuncture than they were before. This is why I use few points in super seniors (and a 14+ SharPei certainly qualifies as a super senior!) or dogs who are receiving their first treatment. I suspect this is what is happening with JJ. If he has poor proprioception in his hind legs, decreased strength will make him more likely to splay.
Work to help JJ feel happier and better in himself. You have had some excellent suggestions from Ginny and Christine regarding the snuffle mat and the happiness protocol. This will increase his energy. It is painful to watch our seniors age, and I understand your hurt and grief. I've been there myself, and have been the unintentional cause of discomfort to my own beloved seniors by misunderstanding their situation. We vets are only human, and despite my own intense continuing education, I can not always choose the perfect treatment for each patient.
It is entirely possible that the vet did everything properly and JJ had an unfortunate adverse response. Dogs are so sensitive to our emotions that you will help him most by focusing on helping him manage with his limitations.
Incidentally, PQQ (pyrroloquinolone quinone) is not used for cognitive dysfunction in dogs. I have found a few rat and mouse references, nothing for dogs.
I hope this helps,
Dr. Sara
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That said, I cannot find anything to indicate that PQQ would not "work", biochemically, in dogs in the same ways as in humans. Cognitive dysfunction is perhaps one target, just as any anti-oxidant sort of supplement will help with mitochondria and cellular health across the board. I think it's a helpful supplement, and am using it myself. I would approve of its use with dogs; we know veterinary science is light-years behind the curve in many instances in any case. I wouldn't look for miraculous results in a specific area, though.
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PQQ might help dogs, it might not. It might have adverse effects, it might not.
PQQ research has not advanced to the point where it has been studied in dogs; it is still in the rat / mouse research stages.
Part of our veterinary oath is "First, do no harm". I would not give something to my own dogs, or suggest for a client's beloved dog, that has not had some sort of trials in dogs.
For example, grapes and macadamia nuts are fine for people, healthful in many ways, and potentially toxic to dogs.
There are huge differences between animals and people. Vets are cautious about applying what is known in one species to another, as we have multiple instances of adverse reactions to a substance in one species that is innocuous or healthful in another.
Homeopathic medicines are one of the few medicines that are safe in all species, and there are still differences in how various species respond.
Dr. Sara
PQQ research has not advanced to the point where it has been studied in dogs; it is still in the rat / mouse research stages.
Part of our veterinary oath is "First, do no harm". I would not give something to my own dogs, or suggest for a client's beloved dog, that has not had some sort of trials in dogs.
For example, grapes and macadamia nuts are fine for people, healthful in many ways, and potentially toxic to dogs.
There are huge differences between animals and people. Vets are cautious about applying what is known in one species to another, as we have multiple instances of adverse reactions to a substance in one species that is innocuous or healthful in another.
Homeopathic medicines are one of the few medicines that are safe in all species, and there are still differences in how various species respond.
Dr. Sara
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And then there is this:
Affiliations expand
...and all those studies with rats, mice, pigs, and chickens
I'm fine with PQQ. Its structure and job description ring my bell. I also am not afraid of eating the lovely dandelion greens in my yard, even though no trial has been done... Most of the cautions and approvals we observe are, after all, products of experimentation by our and other species. And we are closer to dogs than to most others. If you feed ubiquinol, CoQ10, Vit E, astaxanthin, even fish body oil, you are dealing with the same sorts of natural antioxidants, expecting the same sort of result. And I do.
I understand your caution as a vet. I just don't subscribe to it without examination.
<Potential physiological importance of pyrroloquinoline quinone
Robert Rucker 1, Winyoo Chowanadisai, Masahiko NakanoAffiliations expand
- PMID: 19803551
Abstract
Pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) is a novel biofactor for which a proposition can be made for physiological importance. PQQ was first recognized as an enzyme cofactor in bacteria. It has recently been tentatively identified as a component of interstellar dust. Thus, PQQ may have been present throughout early biological conception and evolution. PQQ is also a potent plant growth factor. Consequently, for animals and humans, there has been constant exposure to PQQ. In animals, PQQ is reported to participate in a range of biological functions with apparent survival benefits (e.g., improved neonatal growth and reproductive performance). There are also benefits from PQQ supplementation related to cognitive, immune, and antioxidant functions, as well as protection from cardiac and neurological ischemic events. Although PQQ is not currently viewed as a vitamin, its involvement in cell signaling pathways, particularly those important to mitochondriogenesis in experimental animal models, may eventually provide a rationale for defining PQQ as vital to life. For humans, such evidence suggests there may be similar parallels or benefits from improving PQQ status.>...and all those studies with rats, mice, pigs, and chickens
I'm fine with PQQ. Its structure and job description ring my bell. I also am not afraid of eating the lovely dandelion greens in my yard, even though no trial has been done... Most of the cautions and approvals we observe are, after all, products of experimentation by our and other species. And we are closer to dogs than to most others. If you feed ubiquinol, CoQ10, Vit E, astaxanthin, even fish body oil, you are dealing with the same sorts of natural antioxidants, expecting the same sort of result. And I do.I understand your caution as a vet. I just don't subscribe to it without examination.
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There is a substantive difference between consuming significant quantities of a nutrient in a purified form (like PQQ) and eating foods containing that substance (kiwi, green tea, natto, spinach, etc). The study you list merely indicates that PQQ is naturally present in the diet of all animals. Note that it discusses potential physiologic importance, and stresses the need for further studies.
The further studies referenced are all in rodents. If you derive benefit from PQQ, great! I would not assume that domestic animals would derive the same benefit, nor would I assume that rodent studies are indicative of safety. There are numerous antioxidants shown to safely improve cognition in dogs, and I would utilize those first.
Dr. Sara
The further studies referenced are all in rodents. If you derive benefit from PQQ, great! I would not assume that domestic animals would derive the same benefit, nor would I assume that rodent studies are indicative of safety. There are numerous antioxidants shown to safely improve cognition in dogs, and I would utilize those first.
Dr. Sara
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Exactly Dr. Sara! Very well said and very important.
It's interesting that this discussion is coming up as I was just thinking about the comment you made earlier in this thread Lil.
There is minimal evidence that this supplement will help dogs with any clinical challenge.
There is a little bit of clinical experience in dogs (more in people) and experimental studies in other mammals to say that it is safe and effective and could be (like Co Q-10) useful.
However there is no way that your acupuncture vet would know about this unless she came across it in the research and looked into it further.
Ginny, as you know from our discussions over the years, my own orientation is to constantly look for new and effective ways to help patients. However, in the case of supplements or anything that can potentially do harm, it is not usually a good idea for a pet parent that was not fully informed to decide what to do.
However Lil, in this case I don't think you were fully informed and may have thought that PQQ is a standard part of vet treatment. However, it is not. Supplements like omega-3 fatty acids, glucosamine, Co Q10 are part of practice because most vets know they are safe and effective. That is not the case with PQQ (or d-ribose, or...).
Even tho physiologically PQQ should be safe, like the grape example that Dr. Sara mentioned, you never know for sure without clinical evidence or further research). In general tho, determining if a particular species might have an unexpected reaction requires studies with lots of cases or lots of clinical research.
Unlike Ginny (who is a big researcher and experimenter) I don't think you were fully informed about PQQ.
Regarding the acupuncture, as Dr. Sara says, a seemingly adverse effect is individual, and sometimes may even be a good thing, similar to a medicinal aggravation after a remedy of any kind. This phenomenon is the source of the partially true statement about homeopathy which says that a patient will get worse before getting better.
I say partially true because practice, experience and research show that the chance of worsening after a treatment is directly related to the dose used. That's why Dr. Sara wisely chooses to go slow with her initial acupuncture session, and why 6th Organon prescribers of homeopathy use an initial "test" dose.
BTW-At some point soon, let's discuss this question of dose and use of physiologic vs. energetic remedies like supplements, acupuncture and homeopathy. Maybe we can bring this during our next HMDM call.
For now tho, it's important to realize that most vets, including your acupuncture doc, have pets best interest at heart. Who know, JJ may even be better than before because of the acupuncture session...
Please let us know next week how he is doing.
It's interesting that this discussion is coming up as I was just thinking about the comment you made earlier in this thread Lil.
There is minimal evidence that this supplement will help dogs with any clinical challenge.
There is a little bit of clinical experience in dogs (more in people) and experimental studies in other mammals to say that it is safe and effective and could be (like Co Q-10) useful.
However there is no way that your acupuncture vet would know about this unless she came across it in the research and looked into it further.
Ginny, as you know from our discussions over the years, my own orientation is to constantly look for new and effective ways to help patients. However, in the case of supplements or anything that can potentially do harm, it is not usually a good idea for a pet parent that was not fully informed to decide what to do.
However Lil, in this case I don't think you were fully informed and may have thought that PQQ is a standard part of vet treatment. However, it is not. Supplements like omega-3 fatty acids, glucosamine, Co Q10 are part of practice because most vets know they are safe and effective. That is not the case with PQQ (or d-ribose, or...).
Even tho physiologically PQQ should be safe, like the grape example that Dr. Sara mentioned, you never know for sure without clinical evidence or further research). In general tho, determining if a particular species might have an unexpected reaction requires studies with lots of cases or lots of clinical research.
Unlike Ginny (who is a big researcher and experimenter) I don't think you were fully informed about PQQ.
Regarding the acupuncture, as Dr. Sara says, a seemingly adverse effect is individual, and sometimes may even be a good thing, similar to a medicinal aggravation after a remedy of any kind. This phenomenon is the source of the partially true statement about homeopathy which says that a patient will get worse before getting better.
I say partially true because practice, experience and research show that the chance of worsening after a treatment is directly related to the dose used. That's why Dr. Sara wisely chooses to go slow with her initial acupuncture session, and why 6th Organon prescribers of homeopathy use an initial "test" dose.
BTW-At some point soon, let's discuss this question of dose and use of physiologic vs. energetic remedies like supplements, acupuncture and homeopathy. Maybe we can bring this during our next HMDM call.
For now tho, it's important to realize that most vets, including your acupuncture doc, have pets best interest at heart. Who know, JJ may even be better than before because of the acupuncture session...
Please let us know next week how he is doing.
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@Dr. Sara Hey Dr. Sara, I was waiting to reply to see how JJ is doing a week after the acupuncture. He still splays his back legs (wish I could post the video), when he is eating, after having been sleeping or resting. That is why I was trying to get him out for weight bearing exercise even for 10 minutes. Will this reverse and will he go back to "normal?", his normal... what course of action or inaction besides making him happy should I follow right now? I told the vet when we went in how well he had been doing. Then to walk away with this.... Maybe she wasn't fully recovered from COVID and not 100 %. We have an appointment in a few weeks again, what should I do? Is it possible to "reverse" what she did and give JJ the treatment he had in June which was ok? Maybe it is a stupid question :-( ? Thank you for your always inclusive answers (and empathy) which I appreciate and devour. The vet did email me before she went on vacation again that JJ had problems splaying his legs and that I should raise his bowl... IMO this was a case of blaming the patient. Raising the bowl does not address the change in his status the acupuncture caused. I told her when we came in how well he was doing. JJ has had some weakness in the past but not regularly, more of a sporadic thing. And certainly not within the past 2 months at all until after the acupuncture. BTW, my Gabby, the 14 year old shar pei, who in comparison is like a puppy, is now also limping on her front legs. Many many points were done on her...she even did her stomach because she threw up once in four months... Did not think her stomach needed a treatment. Wish we had better choices within a drivable radius of our home.
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Dear Lil,
We simply can't know how JJ or Gabby will respond to another acupuncture treatment. Living beings are dynamic, and it is possible that their symptoms are unrelated to the acupuncture. I agree, it seems likely that the acupuncture was an excessive stimulus for JJ and Gabby in this instance, but we simply can't know everything. It also is possible that they have become more sensitive to acupuncture.
There are comfort measures to help JJ.
Raising the bowl is a good suggestion to move JJ's weight back so that he can stand more comfortably, and perhaps splay less.
A lot of larger dogs will also benefit from improved traction in the house. I put non-skid mats everywhere that my seniors stood for any length of time, and also where they changed direction, such as around corners. If your house is already about as non-skid as you can make it, consider PawFriction to apply to the bottoms of the paw pads
Paw Friction worked wonderfully for my oldest girl with proprioceptive problems, and other patients have had good results as well.
Booties can also work well, though not all dogs like to wear them.
My patients have not benefitted from the toe grips that go over the nail. I think they don't give a wide enough surface to help a wobbly senior.
Regarding future acupuncture sessions, acupressure that you can administer may be a better choice.
You can learn how to do acupressure yourself from a book like 'Four Paws Five Directions' by Cheryl Schwartz
There are also various acupressure courses, which have been discussed on the forum and presentations. Acupressure is a modality that you can adjust based on your pups' response and needs.
I hope this helps!
Dr. Sara
We simply can't know how JJ or Gabby will respond to another acupuncture treatment. Living beings are dynamic, and it is possible that their symptoms are unrelated to the acupuncture. I agree, it seems likely that the acupuncture was an excessive stimulus for JJ and Gabby in this instance, but we simply can't know everything. It also is possible that they have become more sensitive to acupuncture.
There are comfort measures to help JJ.
Raising the bowl is a good suggestion to move JJ's weight back so that he can stand more comfortably, and perhaps splay less.
A lot of larger dogs will also benefit from improved traction in the house. I put non-skid mats everywhere that my seniors stood for any length of time, and also where they changed direction, such as around corners. If your house is already about as non-skid as you can make it, consider PawFriction to apply to the bottoms of the paw pads
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Booties can also work well, though not all dogs like to wear them.
My patients have not benefitted from the toe grips that go over the nail. I think they don't give a wide enough surface to help a wobbly senior.
Regarding future acupuncture sessions, acupressure that you can administer may be a better choice.
You can learn how to do acupressure yourself from a book like 'Four Paws Five Directions' by Cheryl Schwartz
Four Paws Five Directions
Welcome to the world of traditional Chinese medicine—for cats and dogs! For the growing number of animal lovers seeking an alternative to Western medicine, this thoughtful and comprehensive approach to home animal care is a virtual godsend.
drcherylschwartz.com
I hope this helps!
Dr. Sara
I have heard really good vets take a very very weak or paralyzed dog, do acupuncture and they start walking. Dr. Marty Goldstein has done this. He did this a lot. Seems that a dog presenting with paralysis would be a very weak state. How did Dr. Marty always get them to walk? JJ went in at 2PM not splaying or slipping and at 330 he comes out doing just that and suddenly needs his bowl raised and gripper shoes?? I think this misses the point. His left leg seemed unsteady on the grass today. I was offended the vet tried to "blame the patient." which is common when they screw up so royally. I told the vet that he was doing great the past couple months and his June acupuncture went well. She just sticks the needles in like a pin cushion and when I ask what she is treating she said the immune system and his back. OK, so I guess I will send her the latest picture and sure it will be part 2 of blame the patient. He did not walk in with this symptom but he walked out with it. This is wrong. I read on the internet that bad side effects are rare. He was doing well and not weak like the aforementioned dog. I told her he was walking more and I thought the adequan and vetri disc I started him on were benefitting him tremendously. I guess the answer is no more acupuncture. He had another bad result, maybe in early spring and I halted it. I think it is more the practitioner than it is JJ or Gabby. Gabby still runs around like a puppy and for her to limp after acupuncture is freakin bizarre. Then she goes on another vacation in stead of addressing this issue. Wish I had better practitioner choices in my area. How did she get certified in chiropractic over the lockdown when she wasn't seeing any dogs? How is that possible when she was adjusting my dogs before any certification... I don't want my dogs to be lab experiments. Her adjustments were another debacle and thankfully I stopped those when the two dogs were like limping twins...I should get what I pay for.
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I hear your grief, anger, and frustration and I sympathise with you, Lil.
Remember, your emotions affect your family as well. Please focus on what you can do to help your pups.
Dr. Marty does not always have success with paralyzed patients. No vet, however excellent, always has excellent results.
An animal with physical weakness due to an acute slipped disc is quite different energetically from a senior animal with chronic weakness and decreased function.
I understand your concerns over your vet's competence. At the very least, this vet-patient match is not a good one for your furry patients, which is why I suggested acupressure.
Stay well,
Dr. Sara
Remember, your emotions affect your family as well. Please focus on what you can do to help your pups.
Dr. Marty does not always have success with paralyzed patients. No vet, however excellent, always has excellent results.
An animal with physical weakness due to an acute slipped disc is quite different energetically from a senior animal with chronic weakness and decreased function.
I understand your concerns over your vet's competence. At the very least, this vet-patient match is not a good one for your furry patients, which is why I suggested acupressure.
Stay well,
Dr. Sara
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@Dr. Jeff @Dr. Sara Been a while since I had the opportunity to check in.....JJ's sagging was intermittent, mostly observed at his meal around noon. Today he was somehow worse than ever and could not upright himself very well. I suspect that he was using his front legs for some strength to right himself up to now, but in the last few days he must have injured his front leg. I am thinking he was roaming at night. His male wrap was not on him in the morning and I could not find it anywhere.... I finally found it behind a weight rack in another room so maybe he got stuck and hurt himself. He gets an adequan shot wednesday from the conventional vet and not sure he has enough time to evaluate his front leg because he usually just comes out to the car for the shot. So If he needs something for pain and inflammation, what would be a safer alternative to rimadyl---just thinking ahead. I have been giving one T Relief a couple times a day and another product called Muscle and Joint drops along with curcumin, boswellia, MSM, Vetri Disc, fish oil (600mg, he weighs 47 lbs). The holistic vet is on vacation again so I have not heard from her. I wish there was another alternative near me.. He is limping quite a bit on the front leg and I did email the holistic vet and stated that he was still having an adverse reaction in the hind end to the last acupuncture on Aug 12th. I told her he also had a bad reaction in Feb but a good one in June, can she figure out a variable that accounts for those polar effects. Anyway, right now, he has to wait a few days and is there anything else I can give him. I feel sorry for him because he was holding his own nicely and even made some progress with his mobility before Aug 12th. Thanks.
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Hi Lil-
I hope JJ is feeling better soon!
www.holisticactions.com
I hope JJ is feeling better soon!
Maybe try Arnica!
Arnica is Safer and Often More Effective Than Rimadyl - Holistic Actions!
Give your injured dog or cat frequent sips of Arnica from a water bottle right after any injury. It can help by the time you get to the veterinarian.
www.holisticactions.com
