• Everyone can read this forum. To post on this forum, you must be a Community or VIP member. You can register here. If you are a member, to login use your email address for the username and the same password you use for the main site. If you have problems logging in to the forum, please email [email protected].

What can I do about Li'l Bit o' Magic with inoperable hemangiosarcoma of the spleen

AlysonR

VIP Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 21, 2020
Messages
83
Hi All,
About 2 years ago, a scrawny (now 40-ish pound) black dog with short hair and those half-flop, puppy-like ears came wandering the fence line towards our house out in very rural eastern WV. By the time I'd called animal control, she'd left, apparently scared of my movement through the window. After many bowls of canned dog food, lots of patience, various interesting and difficult episodes and a whole lot of patience, Magic became our dog. We learned she was actually between 5 and 7 years old (now 7 to 9 years old), that she'd been on the road at least 6 weeks, but probably a lot longer, that she was already spayed, and that she didn't grow up much around people (she didn't even understand "no", and she didn't respond to the high voice generally used with praise).
She's had digestive issues the entire time we've had her. She's got lipomas in several spots; she eats dirt daily; she loves 'dead things' (carrion); her bottom front teeth are worn to nubbins; and she's had multiple bouts of stool with blood -- the blood always comes at the end of the 2nd (or 3rd) bowel movement, and it's always just several dark drops -- and then it resolves. In May she had an episode that lasted longer than 24 hrs, so I took her to the vet, who diagnosed her with a bowel irritation and gave her an antibiotic and a probiotic. That resolved things until I ran out of both, at which point I added grapefruit seed extract (125 mg per day) to her diet, and that seemed to do the trick. Since many (all?) of the episodes of blood seemed to be after an 'indiscretion' of one sort or another (chewing up ancient deer carcasses or other sorts of bones, usually), I thought maybe her intestine was physically being irritated. Indeed, with the recent diagnosis of a mass seen on her spleen, it seems physical irritation through eating things without thoroughly chewing them could be contributing to the bleeding.
In any event, she's got low platelets (probably due to bleeding), low red blood cells, high neutrophils, and high lymphocytes, as well as a 'raging' heart murmur, all of which means she isn't a good candidate for surgery. She is now on Yunnan Baiyao, but the bleeding at the end of bowel movements hasn't stopped. It has changed, though. Now it is bright red and mixed with mucous. I'll be adding I'm-Yunity to the mix as soon as I get it (hopefully tomorrow).
Has anyone used the 'red pill' in the Yunnan Baiyao package? And if so, at what point is it a good idea to do so? On the one hand, Magic isn't completely lethargic, nor is she in shock. Nor is she needing to go outside constantly to expel blood. On a 40 minute walk, she pooped twice, the first with some blood and mucous, the second all blood. (This morning, her first BM was normal, and the second had blood mixed with mucous.) On the other hand, she is still bleeding -- maybe a couple Tbsps per day, and the Yunnan Baiyao doesn't seem to be stopping that.
FYI, we initially named her Li'l Bit, but then we found we were using that phrase a lot in conversation, so we renamed her Magic, due to her calming effect on our rambunctious shepherd/husky mix, Merlin. Hence the full name 'Li'l Bit o' Magic'.
Suggestions always welcome. This is the 5th dog I've had with cancer -- all of them different. I sure am tired of cancer....

Alyson Reeves
Levels, WV
 
Wow, what a beautiful adoption, and re-naming to Magic, story Alyson, thanks for sharing. ? I'm so sorry tho to hear about her splenic tumor. She's already been through so much...

Yes, I've had many private clients that used the emergency red pill which is indicated for episodes of acute, severe bleeding often accompanied by collapse, sudden extreme lassitude, white gums etc. I bet @Dr. Sara has more to say about the red pill. In the meantime, here's a conventional article on use of Yunnan from our friends at Angell:


She has a lot going on, and there are many holistic suggestions for cancer prevention and management (many of them are found in this forum folder and the cancer resources in your member area). The first thing I wonder tho is about her BEAM (behavior, energy, appetite, mood)?

Also what does she LOVE to do?? This can be anything from eating, special treats, playing, petting, car rides, etc.

Let's help her have the best quality of life possible!
 
Great suggestions, Dr. Jeff.
I would add that you may want to begin as soon as possible to work with a veterinary homeopath by phone.
Dr. Christina
If you know of one or more veterinary homeopaths willing to work by phone (or where I could find that information), I'll contact one of them.
 


 
Her BEAM hasn't changed a lot since this all began (although it is hard to tell exactly when it began).

Behavior: slightly less independent? She's barking more often to come in, rather than simply using her dog door (which she does know how to use). She's an older dog, and she's never played with toys. She still loves to go for walks -- and track down and eat 'dead things' (that's one of her LOVE items). She also still enjoys car rides, despite many having had a stop at the vet along the way. I was trying to get her nails trimmed down to a reasonable length (terrier digging claws!!), and she wouldn't let me do them at home. That said, all rides have included a walk some place special before heading home. She naps -- a lot, but she always has. She loves to spend time sun bathing, and she's still doing this, especially if I'm out in the yard. She often spends some time on the bed with me at night, though I now have to lift her up. Happily, 65+ pound Merlin is not nearly as keen to spend time on the bed or there'd be no room for me! Daily marrow bones are a must, though sometimes she buries them for later (if Merlin doesn't get to them first). She enjoys short, nightly training sessions, though she's a slow study as she doesn't pick up on human gestures very well, and she is slow to try new things. She just recently mastered 'lift right' (lift right front paw), though she doesn't keep it lifted.

Energy: A little lagging on walks, generally when we're going up hill (something I totally understand, though that's a change from 'before'). Going down hill she's still trotting, and she mostly trots when it's level. Most of the rest of her day doesn't involve a lot of energy expenditure -- napping, sun bathing, going in and out the dog door...

Appetite: Pretty much the same as before, but she's waiting until I feed her by hand, rather than lapping up her food from her plate. She's always been timid about eating, but for a while she was eating off her plastic 'plate' (lid of a glass container) on her own. Her plate is plastic because metal things 'clank', and this is a definite turn off for her. If we set down plates for the dogs to lick, we have to be certain hers is on carpeting so that it won't clank. She's gotten a bit better about clanks. Forks clanking on plates now elicit a 'pay the puppy' (give her some food) look, rather than a 'get up and walk away' action. Progress!

Mood: Again, not much change here. When I took the dogs to the Paw Paw Tunnel -- 35 minute drive -- yesterday, she didn't bark on the way there or back, which was a little unusual. Usually she's a little bit more enthusiastic. She did watch out the front, though, hanging her head over the fabric barrier. She walked nearly a mile out, and when I turned us around, it was because she'd found something in a tree trunk that she wanted to pursue. So...a good long walk, and a fair bit of enthusiasm on her part. She did alternate between walking and trotting (that trail is flat), rather than trotting the whole way.

I'll have a look at some of the resources. I've been a subscriber to Whole Dog Journal since 1999, and I've read just about every issue cover-to-cover. I've also worked with Dr. Carvel Tiekert, as well as Dr. Chapman, and I'm currently working with a naturopath for myself, so I have a fair bit of practical experience with all this, though I can't seem to prevent cancer no matter what I try. But then, all of my dogs have been rescue dogs, so I've had no control over their genetics or early life. The closest I came was being able to vasectomize Merlin (rather than neuter), and that was because he had heartworm when I got him.

Somewhat good news this morning: first stool normal, second stool just a little bit of blood and mucous -- much reduced from before. It sounds like she's nowhere near needing the red pill just yet :)!
 


I'll take a look at these suggestions later today. Right now I've got to go enjoy the sun :).
Thank you!
-Alyson
 
I had thought Dr. Sagrera might be a good fit, but the earliest they could fit Magic in would be the end of October. I read in one of the posts here about Dr. Pope (holistic veterinary oncologist) and was impressed that she had actually had a study going on hemangiosarcoma of the spleen (though I couldn't access the published results). I contacted her office, and (fingers crossed) they should be able to fit us in in about 2 weeks, although we will need to make the trip to NJ -- only once. Since I am treating my own disease with (massive doses of) herbs and have beat the odds thus far, Dr. Pope's similar approach resonated with me. In fact, I had been taking Artemisinin but have now switched to the whole plant (Artecin by Thorne), so I have quite a bit of Artemisinin left over. Interestingly, *my* doctor has me taking the Artecin 4 times a day spaced 1 hour apart, in order to keep the concentration high for 4 hours each day. Also, he has (explicitly) not called out any absorption interference by foods or other herbs. Dr. James Belanger is his name, and he is *quite* good, so I trust him in his research (I've checked his research a couple of times and found it to be spot on). But his dosing for Artecin is quite different from what I've read online about Artemisinin for dogs. Is this just because Artecin is the whole herb? Or has the research progressed? Or is it most important to keep the concentration high for a period of time each day -- in which case, giving 100 mg twice a day, 1 or 2 hours apart for a 40 lb. dog might make more sense than spacing it 12 hours apart.
 
Great that you connected with Dr. Kendra!

She also has a wonderful webinar archived in your member area that you can watch tonight (or any time).

Dr. Pope is definitely the person to ask about Artemesinin vs. Artectin. She has tons more knowledge about it than I do.

BTW-You may like this article:

 
I started reading the article and I plan to finish it -- when I get the chance.
Dr. Pope was a no-go. Seems she prefers patients that could actually be healed. I think Magic is too far along for that, but we'll see. I went back to Dr. Sagrera, and the receptionist gave me *her* appointment (for her cat, who, apparently, isn't quite as sick as Magic is), so I talked to Dr. Sagrera yesterday. She gave me a protocol to follow which, unfortunately, includes a couple of things I need to get sent from her -- and they (in LA) are still suffering effects from a recent storm. It may be a week or more before I can get those items. In the meantime, I've started the supplements I had on hand, and the remedy Sepia at 30C (she's sending it at 50M, but UPS and FedEx aren't running, and USPS is notoriously unreliable, as everything goes through Harrisburg).

I found Dr. Sagrera to be able to intuit my meanings quickly and easily, and she had the insight that the blood in the stool is probably from liver involvement (tumor?) -- which the emergency vet didn't make clear to me, though he apparently mumbled something about the possibility in the writeup that was forwarded to Dr. Sagrera.

Dr. Sagrera has left open the possibility of starting Artemisinin (she doesn't like the products that mix forms), but we're holding off on that for now. So far, we've got Yunnan Baiyao, I'm-Yunity, D3, K(1 and 2) and the Sepia on board. Will be adding SP E-poise and SP Sesame oil pearls to support RBC and Platelets.

I like Dr. Sagrera's straight-forward, well intuited approach, and her receptionist is an angel for allowing me to take her cat's appointment.
 
If you are on Facebook, please join the group "Hemangiosarcoma Diet & Supplement Protocols for dogs - A holistic Approach". They are compassionate, experienced folks with a wealth of combined knowledge. I found them very helpful when my 12 year old Shih Tzu was diagnosed with two lesions on her spleen, via ultrasound, in January 2019. She was immediately started on daily supplements of Turkey Tail Powder and Yunnan Baio. We followed up with additional ultrasounds every six months. In the interim, they grew and a third one started so at the end of February 2020, her spleen was removed. When biopsied, the growths were not hemangiosarcoma but two different cancerous entities. She had an unremarkable recovery and is doing well 19 months later. We celebrate her 14th birthday on October 3rd. Timing is important. If I hadn't acted immediately after her last ultrasound, we would have faced a much more difficult situation since everything closed down with covid. Have you considered getting a second opinion for Magic? Since you were willing to go to NJ, you might consider going to the exceptional vet who took care of my Joli. He is Dr. Dongho Seo, a holistic vet at Smith Ridge Veterinary in South Salem, NY. Wishing you and Magic the best of outcomes. Please let us know how you make out.
 
Wow...what a wonderful story. I am *so* happy your pup is doing well 19 months after pseudo-diagnosis (because the presumption turned out to be wrong).

Generally, I stay as far away from facebook as I possibly can -- mostly out of habit formed at my former job (I am now retired). That said, I very much like having more than one 'basket' to put my eggs into (i.e. more than one fount of knowledge). For the moment, I'm going to see how Dr. Sagrera's prescribed protocol works out. Magic is also on Yunnan Baiyao and Turkey Tail mushrooms (I'm-Yunity, though it sounds like the powder from another source might be a less expensive, equally effective option. I'll have to ask Dr. Sagrera...). If she were a candidate for surgery, things might be very different. That said, follow-up ultrasounds will probably useful, so thank you for that tidbit of information. If I start to lose confidence in Dr. Sagrera's protocol (i.e. Magic's deteriorating), I will definitely look into the facebook group.
 
Wonderful Alyson that you got in so quickly to see Dr. Sagrera, and that you resonated with her!

While you wait for the Sepia, perhaps focus on the Happiness and Terrain Optimizing Protocols.



 
Just an update.... I was thinking Magic's love was walking (and searching for 'dead things'), so I took her on walks in various places. The trouble was that the walks were putting pressure on the ruptured tumor, causing more bleeding. Searching out happiness has to be taken in context with what might be harmful, I guess. I have ordered a snuffle mat (arriving today) which I plan to stuff with dried organ meats. I am hoping that'll bring some happiness, but she's always slow to try new things...

She had a very scary episode 10/5 after her AM walk in which she started shivering, was lying on the floor (which she seems to do when she's uncomfortable) and had cold paws and was generating excess saliva. This was after a lot of bleeding from BM's during the walk (maybe as much as 1/4 cup of blood?!?) While I waited for Dr. Sagrera to respond, I did lots of TTouch ear work. I got her paws warm (with the ear work!) and she stopped trembling, got up and lay down on her bed. Dr. Sagrera recommended Merc. V. 30c, which I gave her (after she'd gone to her bed). No change after that. Although I only noticed it this morning, Magic's back left heel is swollen -- I did notice she was carrying her left ear back during 10/5 AM walk, but I couldn't figure out why. She is not limping, but the heel (inner part, actually) is clearly quite swollen. While it *could* be a flair up from her car injury (when she got tapped), I can't find anything that says which foot was injured at that time. Bad notes on my part AND on the emergency vet's notes!

From 10/1 evening to 10/5 morning, I gave Magic Sepia 50M. During that time, she had nightly urine accidents (probably towards early morning, judging by dampness). I'm not seeing the manic energy I saw while giving Sepia 30c. We've also stopped walks for the time being, hoping the bloody BMs will subside. Of course, now it's harder for me to keep track of BMs, unless I go out in backyard with her every time, which I don't. Since she used to be a stray, it's a fine line how much confinement of her I can get away with....

Appetite, Energy and Behavior appear about average. Yesterday I saw her roll on her back in the grass for the first time in a while, so maybe her mood is improving? The scariest part is her swollen belly. If this program is having the desired effect, I know it's going to take quite a while before that improves, but it's hard to be patient.
 
OK, color me amazed! Early morning, Magic was clearly uncomfortable (lying on floor). She got up, drank, and went to lie on another dog bed (we have several), so I didn't think anything of it. When I got up, she got as far as the door to that room and then lay down. I helped her up, she came downstairs, went out, defecated twice, continued to strain and then collapsed and couldn't get back up. We carried her inside, set her on the couch and called Dr. Sagrera. 1 red pill (from Yunnan Baiyao package) and several doses of China 30c, and she got up on her own, ate some breakfast (which she requested by staring at where it ought to be), and ate all of her supplements. I am sure we brought her back from the brink of death. Fingers crossed... the internal bleeding may have stopped for now. My guess is it started early this morning, and if I had had the presence of mind to do something at that point, it wouldn't have gotten this bad. As it is, Magic is still a bit weak and has a pendulous belly.

Also, the fluid on the back left hock has resolved, so that was almost certainly an aggravation from the Sepia, which brings me to my next question:
Are there any methods of clearing the body of surgery drugs (carprofen, ACE, etc.)? The one thing the urinary accidents at night (related, maybe, to lowered estrogen -- i.e. spay surgery) and the fluid on the hock have in common is that both the spay surgeries (the second was to find out she'd already been spayed) and the original hock injury were treated with multiple pain medications (including follow up, like gabapentin). I have often wondered if this is why, in humans, solid tumors treated with standard surgery/chemo/radiation are often followed by 'soft' tumors, like acute myeloid leukemia. Could it be the drugs used with surgery are a large part of the problem? Is *this* why dogs that have been spayed/neutered have a higher incidence of certain cancers -- or at least a contributing factor? After all, those surgeries are pretty major, and they do require a lot of drugs to get the patient through and maintain comfort.

As I was writing this, Magic got up, licked at some more of her breakfast, got a large drink of water, and lay back down on her bed in her preferred position. If we can just get the bleeding under control, we may have a fighting chance. Thank you so much, Dr. Jeff, for recommending Dr. Sagrera. Her treatment plan, so far, has been spot on!
 
Yesterday I saw her roll on her back in the grass for the first time in a while, so maybe her mood is improving?

Exactly!

Are there any methods of clearing the body of surgery drugs (carprofen, ACE, etc.)?

Wow, I love this question because it raises some super important points. 1. Drugs are not bad per se, so you may not need to deal with them directly. However, you will always want to work with her body's response to the drugs. That response depends on her individuality, sensitivity, prior treatments, pathology, etc. So the answer to this question is always it depends.

As a general rule, supportive supplements like Hepato Support and curative homeopathic medicines will help her body's natural clearing mechanisms.


I'm also a big fan of using fiber to help clearing and here's the one I use in my practice:

Could it be the drugs used with surgery are a large part of the problem?

Yes, as any stressor (like drugs, anesthetics, or surgical stress alone) can slow healing.

Is *this* why dogs that have been spayed/neutered have a higher incidence of certain cancers -- or at least a contributing factor?

Probably not (but it again deends on the individual). Perhaps take a look at Dr. Sara's great neutering course (free in your member area) for the primary reasons.
 
All pretty amazing.... I'm wondering if it would be helpful to think of the "drug effect" not in terms of any physical influence - certainly present, but not for long, I believe - but rather as an expression of the body's reaction - in other words, we properly can address the symptoms only as the body shows them to us, working with the body's processes and not any physical residue. Each animal will have his own set of strengths and weaknesses going in, and the best way to deal with insults is to help that total picture - even without considering what drugs have been used. You're doing a wonderful job with her; we look forward to your updates:)
 
Exactly Ginny! Based on susceptibility the drugs may produce a dis-similar dis-ease.
 
Not sure I'm following that. Are you saying that _at the time_ of surgery, the drugs are suppressing symptoms like pain and inflammation so that we, not seeing the symptoms, have no chance of properly addressing them (through, say, application of Arnica)? Or are you saying that many years later, even though the symptoms may have been brought on by the surgery (and/or drugs given at the time), those symptoms will be the result of the interaction between the drugs and surgery, and the animal's own strengths/weaknesses, and so the treatment will be based just on the symptoms present those years later -- which may not be the same for each animal? In other words, treatment of those symptoms isn't helped by knowing what brought them on (although that does lend a certain satisfaction for out monkey minds trying to puzzle out the picture). Or is it something else entirely?

I was reading through my notes from Magic's early time with us (2 years ago). She used to get 'stuck' on walks, not willing to let me lead her home. I'd spend 5 minutes or more trying to convince her we needed to go home. She has come so, so far.... Most dogs I've met, after 3 days or so, they 'speak' to me (i.e. I get a feeling for their body language and facial expressions and can pretty well figure out what they're trying to communicate). For Magic, it took about 1 1/2 years! Mostly, I think, because she didn't believe she *could* communicate with me. SO, so far....
 
OK: sorta the second - but not quite... (fresh cup of tea here). Firstly, we have every chance of addressing the symptoms of the surgery, trauma, whatever - even if, and on top of, drugs used. The body hears and responds to the remedies to the best of its abilities IF they are appropriate, even if we cannot tell what is a response to the remedy and what is a drug response. I firmly believe that such remedies are effective and helpful regardless of if we can ascribe a good result to them.

The extent of symptoms down the road will be the result of the body's reaction - ability to deal - with any and all insults suffered in a lifetime, tempered by innate strength, dominant character, inherited traits, etc. We come into life with an inherited toolbox of defenses, to which we add or subtract according to our experiences - there is a wonderful old German word in homeopathic parlance: "befallments", or the stuff that happens to us:) How we react to stressors, and the depth and endurance of those reactions, is what we call health or disease. If we can identify symptoms, we can help the body deal with them as they arise. We don't have to know whence they came in order to match and address them, but it helps us in categorizing the remedies which may ameliorate them.

So, yes, you don't even have to think about the drugs used, except as a point of noting and learning. Have you done any animal communication with her? Can you go farther in this on your own? I feel there is more to this story, with her - maybe some puppyhood trauma, or more illnesses treated conventionally. She won't give you names, but she can say things like, "There was this time when my back hurt and I didn't want to walk" or "my little brother was mean to me and it made my nose stuffy..." "They forced pills down me and I got sleepy..." You're good at this, so perhaps listen hard, get your mind off the surgery drugs, and by all means help her to be happy, even through all this. You're a heck of a good mom:)
 
Back
Top Bottom