Sourcing of Fish and Grass Fed vs Organic for Meats and Organs - Feedback Welcomed

[JodyLT]

Hi everyone - I feed my 3 dogs frozen raw from a company called Raw Feeding Miami. Everything from grinds to organs like liver, lung, kidney, heart and more. After listening to last night's HA! webinar about toxins and some interchange on the Chat, I'm wondering if I'm doing my dogs a disservice, thinking I'm doing good by them.

Here's why: while it seems the salmon I ordered which is sourced from Alaska could be ok, wondering about the sardines from the Gulf of Mexico and really wondering about the meats; most of which are not certified organic. Here is what the owner of Raw Feeding Miami wrote back to me when I asked about sourcing and organics, especially for organ meats like liver and kidneys, which process all the toxins in the animal. Would love any thoughts from those educated about nutrition and from the docs, of course.

"The fish are all wild caught from a large fishing distributor. The salmon is sockeye from Alaska. The sardines are from the Gulf of Mexico.

Our products are not organic. Every item on the website has its exact description and category. Everything is hormone, antibiotic free and not enhanced with any sodium. Only the items in the pastured section are truly grass-fed and grass-finished. If something is organic, it will state it in the description (such as the lamb chunks for example), but 95% of the items are not certified organic. The entire beef line is grass-fed."

Look forward to hearing back. Thanks!

Jody

 

[Dr. Jeff]

I think you're doing absolutely fine Jody.

The only suggestion I would have is to vary your sources and consider adding a fiber powder to help promote detox.

@GinnyW may have other feeding suggestions as she's a raw feeding pro!

 

[JodyLT]

I think you're doing absolutely fine Jody.

The only suggestion I would have is to vary your sources and consider adding a fiber powder to help promote detox.

@GinnyW may have other feeding suggestions as she's a raw feeding pro!

Thanks, Dr. Jeff. I'll do that. I like Steve's Real Food patties; small manufacturer and complete meals but not separate organ meat or raw meaty bones, but I can give those as afternoon treats in the yard to fulfill that part of their diet. Are you familiar with Steve's or with Tucker's, by chance?
@GinnyW, would welcome feedback for sure. Thanks!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Yes! I love Steve's (I don't know Tucker's).

Darwin's is also super clean and fresh (and may have a first order special price):

Darwin's Natural Pet Products - Delivering Raw Pet Food Direct to Your Door | Darwin's Pet Food

Darwin's makes healthy pet food delivery easy. It's our mission to give pets and their owners more years of healthy companionship through our fresh dog and cat food. Sign up today to get your first 10 lbs of fresh pet food for $14.95 delivered right to your doorstep.

www.darwinspet.com

 

[JodyLT]

Yes! I love Steve's (I don't know Tucker's).

Darwin's is also super clean and fresh (and may have a first order special price):

Darwin's Natural Pet Products - Delivering Raw Pet Food Direct to Your Door | Darwin's Pet Food

Darwin's makes healthy pet food delivery easy. It's our mission to give pets and their owners more years of healthy companionship through our fresh dog and cat food. Sign up today to get your first 10 lbs of fresh pet food for $14.95 delivered right to your doorstep.

www.darwinspet.com

Awesome! Yes, used Darwin's for years as first food when I started raw for Sophie as a young dog. She got tired of it and that's why we switched. I promoted the heck out of them on social and my blog; they were great. Maybe I'll try them again; see what they have. They also stopped carrying some meats back then, but haven't looked on their site in quite a while.

 

[LilF]

Hi everyone - I feed my 3 dogs frozen raw from a company called Raw Feeding Miami. Everything from grinds to organs like liver, lung, kidney, heart and more. After listening to last night's HA! webinar about toxins and some interchange on the Chat, I'm wondering if I'm doing my dogs a disservice, thinking I'm doing good by them.

Here's why: while it seems the salmon I ordered which is sourced from Alaska could be ok, wondering about the sardines from the Gulf of Mexico and really wondering about the meats; most of which are not certified organic. Here is what the owner of Raw Feeding Miami wrote back to me when I asked about sourcing and organics, especially for organ meats like liver and kidneys, which process all the toxins in the animal. Would love any thoughts from those educated about nutrition and from the docs, of course.

"The fish are all wild caught from a large fishing distributor. The salmon is sockeye from Alaska. The sardines are from the Gulf of Mexico.

Our products are not organic. Every item on the website has its exact description and category. Everything is hormone, antibiotic free and not enhanced with any sodium. Only the items in the pastured section are truly grass-fed and grass-finished. If something is organic, it will state it in the description (such as the lamb chunks for example), but 95% of the items are not certified organic. The entire beef line is grass-fed."

Look forward to hearing back. Thanks!

Jody

Jody, I will just share my thoughts. I don't trust companies overall about their food for dogs. I know it iis expensive but I buy human grass fed meat for my dogs and sardines in the store for humans. I have no idea if the ones from Morocco are good but they get those in the cans. I get the salmon from Vital Choice so I know for sure it is clean. Again I don't trust anyone else other than a reputable human food company. And for the dog foods, I go to Susan Thixtons Truth About Pet Food list where companies are transparent about the source of their foods and supplements and it is all listed. Again, it is all expensive. US Wellness meats has organ meats and pet products that I would trust. I am not educated in nutrition per se but I am fussy about what I feed them even if they spend all my retirement!!

 

[JodyLT]

Jody, I will just share my thoughts. I don't trust companies overall about their food for dogs. I know it iis expensive but I buy human grass fed meat for my dogs and sardines in the store for humans. I have no idea if the ones from Morocco are good but they get those in the cans. I get the salmon from Vital Choice so I know for sure it is clean. Again I don't trust anyone else other than a reputable human food company. And for the dog foods, I go to Susan Thixtons Truth About Pet Food list where companies are transparent about the source of their foods and supplements and it is all listed. Again, it is all expensive. US Wellness meats has organ meats and pet products that I would trust. I am not educated in nutrition per se but I am fussy about what I feed them even if they spend all my retirement!!

Don't I hear you about spending all our money! LOL Thanks for this @LilF I hear you. I know Carla and I do think she's transparent. And, as @Dr. Jeff pointed out, it's good to vary my sources, so I really really appreciate the recommendations re organ meats and Susan Thixton's list; awesome. She did respond to further questions from me; here's what she said:

"Hi Jody,

I understand. Yeah there is no testing done like this - not even with the organic or pastured meats. The animals cant receive drugs if they are categorized as hormone and antibiotic and steroid free. Which is why our products are a bit more expensive than like grocery store meat, because they are of that quality. As for pesticides, most crops and such are going to have some form of pesticide, so that is hard to reply on. But I can definitely direct you towards a farm you can order from directly that is 100% grass-fed and non-GMO and you could ask them about their organ meats in regards to this - www.whiteoakpastures.com "

 

[GinnyW]

I think we're all doing the best we can here. We do have a good array of choices, depending on how much we can spend and where we live. It might be important to remember that dogs live short lives compared to ours, and may not ever accumulate significant toxic loads IF we are feeding decent diets. As long as we stay away from factory-farmed meats for the most part they should be in good shape - no Walmart, Safeway, etc. no matter what the labels say, in my view. Variety is a good idea, always - but, OTOH, I have known dogs who ate commercial chicken ONLY who lived fairly good lives. Others who ate only wild venison did significantly - gloriously - better, and I would always go with a wild source if available. Another point I'd like to make - well, two, actually: The liver does NOT store up bad things. It may become dysfunctional if enough insults are suffered, and these dysfunctions are addressed by some supplements, the restoration of a superabundant diet, and of course homeopathy. The liver has remarkable powers of regeneration - my mother almost died of liver poisoning from alcohol; they said they would not have bet she'd live another 15 minutes. In a few months, the liver went from only 10% functional to - 100%!, and this without anything special except abstinence from alcohol. I didn't know enough then to help.... So, "detox" may or may not be a big deal, but getting rid of poisons which impair function definitely IS. The second implication here is that the cleansing organs of our prey/food animals may or may not be "healthy", but what they are NOT is repositories of bad juju. They do NOT filter and save - not the liver, not the kidneys, and not the gut once it is appropriately populated. So there is never an implication of toxins in an organ we can feed, IMO. If these organs hung onto stuff, we'd all be dead early on. Bottom line for me: I eat chlorella because I think it is good food, good for my elimination, and cleansing in a very physical sense. Would I give it to my dog? Well, no - he eats more appropriately than most humans as well as dogs, and I haven't seen a need that "real" dog diet does not fill. If you have an animal whose organs are failing, you need other help, including powerhouse supplements and homeopathy. I'm still not sure that chlorella, spirulina, or cilantro wold rise to that level.

 

[JodyLT]

I think we're all doing the best we can here. We do have a good array of choices, depending on how much we can spend and where we live. It might be important to remember that dogs live short lives compared to ours, and may not ever accumulate significant toxic loads IF we are feeding decent diets. As long as we stay away from factory-farmed meats for the most part they should be in good shape - no Walmart, Safeway, etc. no matter what the labels say, in my view. Variety is a good idea, always - but, OTOH, I have known dogs who ate commercial chicken ONLY who lived fairly good lives. Others who ate only wild venison did significantly - gloriously - better, and I would always go with a wild source if available. Another point I'd like to make - well, two, actually: The liver does NOT store up bad things. It may become dysfunctional if enough insults are suffered, and these dysfunctions are addressed by some supplements, the restoration of a superabundant diet, and of course homeopathy. The liver has remarkable powers of regeneration - my mother almost died of liver poisoning from alcohol; they said they would not have bet she'd live another 15 minutes. In a few months, the liver went from only 10% functional to - 100%!, and this without anything special except abstinence from alcohol. I didn't know enough then to help.... So, "detox" may or may not be a big deal, but getting rid of poisons which impair function definitely IS. The second implication here is that the cleansing organs of our prey/food animals may or may not be "healthy", but what they are NOT is repositories of bad juju. They do NOT filter and save - not the liver, not the kidneys, and not the gut once it is appropriately populated. So there is never an implication of toxins in an organ we can feed, IMO. If these organs hung onto stuff, we'd all be dead early on. Bottom line for me: I eat chlorella because I think it is good food, good for my elimination, and cleansing in a very physical sense. Would I give it to my dog? Well, no - he eats more appropriately than most humans as well as dogs, and I haven't seen a need that "real" dog diet does not fill. If you have an animal whose organs are failing, you need other help, including powerhouse supplements and homeopathy. I'm still not sure that chlorella, spirulina, or cilantro wold rise to that level.

@GinnyW super super helpful. Thank you so much. Now, I feel better. I'm not freaked out that the liver and kidneys I'm feeding my guys are going to pass nastys onto them. Raw Feeding Miami is a responsible company and Carla really does her homework re her sources. And, I'm going to diversify too with other raw food brands.

I don't know if you know anything about cats; I'd mentioned our foster failure (2 for 2, Ginny, we are lost causes as fosters), just likes fish. I've tried to get her to eat beef, chicken, duck, pork and she ain't having any of it. The only meat food I've gotten her to eat and that's because I mix it with a fish one is a high quality dry food with duck, quinoa and some other stuff (although who knows if there's anything at all living in there). I've been told a fish diet for cats is not healthy. Not sure what to do with Ms. Suki.

 

[GinnyW]

With cats, it's pretty universal that great patience can be required. This could mean a drop-by-drop introduction of unappreciated items. What would happen with a drop of meat juice on fish? Chicken obviously from your own table? Licking a baking dish from it? Then, how about fish oil on meat? A piece of that not-so-great kibble with fish oil on it? BTW, quinoa is a grain, and it's really not a good idea. There might be some other dry foods with fish flavor, such as Ziwi Peak, Acana...Perhaps we could start a gifting, with people sending you a few pieces of their favorites in envelopes to try. We need to get her thinking she's getting away with something....

 

[JodyLT]

With cats, it's pretty universal that great patience can be required. This could mean a drop-by-drop introduction of unappreciated items. What would happen with a drop of meat juice on fish? Chicken obviously from your own table? Licking a baking dish from it? Then, how about fish oil on meat? A piece of that not-so-great kibble with fish oil on it? BTW, quinoa is a grain, and it's really not a good idea. There might be some other dry foods with fish flavor, such as Ziwi Peak, Acana...Perhaps we could start a gifting, with people sending you a few pieces of their favorites in envelopes to try. We need to get her thinking she's getting away with something....

Hey @GinnyW! Happy Sunday and thank you for this. I have started to put 1 tiny square of defrosted raw pork from Primal for Cats (Suki likes the dogs' dehydrated raw pork treats so thought I'd start there), mixed into her fish Weruva canned food. We'll see how that goes. She doesn't even eat all the Weruva fish flavors we give her. She's quite the picky eater! LOl

I've always thought quinoa was a seed not a grain; I know it's not a typical grain (I think they call it a pseudo cereal) but you still think its unhealthy for dogs and cats?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

I *love* using quinoa in the diet for all of it's awe-some gluten free goodness.

Yes, Jody, the nomenclature of quinoa is somewhat murky. It's even consider a pseudo-fruit by some. However, it is a seed, but can also be called a grain:

Is Quinoa a Grain?

Is quinoa a grain? If you've always thought quinoa was a grain, keep on reading to discover what it is, where it comes from, and its different types.

www.bobsredmill.com

Quinoa's 'Seed Or Grain' Debate Ends Right Here

It's not as simple as you think.

www.huffpost.com

Can Dogs Eat Quinoa?

Quinoa is a nutrient powerhouse for humans, and your four-legged friend can also reap the benefits of this gluten-free grain alternative.

www.thesprucepets.com

 

[GinnyW]

OK, it's a grain; it's not a grain But it's definitely a plant. For me, I wouldn't feed it to a carnivore. Wouldn't need to, wouldn't want to. Dogs can eat tons of things without major incident; cats not so much. If, as in this case, I had an animal to whom every bit of food was significant, I'd try to feed only totally appropriate items. Not a big deal, especially in the amounts in question. Let's just get that kitty eating

 

[Dr. Jeff]

I agree that this should not be used for the kitty.

Tho I wonder Ginny if you'd rather use an artificial supplement instead of adding this super seed of a plant to a dog's food?

 

[GinnyW]

Well, that would depend on many factors. I'd have to believe that quinoa was uniquely special, offering some nutrient or action that could not be obtained elsewhere. I like to think there are no dietarily accessible properties appropriate for carnivores that cannot be obtained by eating the bodies of herbivores - properly nourished ones, of course - or using supplements based upon said creatures - for instance, Standard Process and other concentrated organic formulas. And then there is the trump card of homeopathy to influence the system to operate properly. This is the desired end, and feeding any supplement to the extent that it becomes a crutch and not a resolution is not the goal. Of course, I'd give my dog slippery elm for a disturbed digestion, but this doesn't mean it needs to be in his diet. I judge every diet item by appropriateness as well as need.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Beautifully said as always Ginny!

Thanks for sharing your wisdom. ? ?

I like to think there are no dietarily accessible properties appropriate for carnivores that cannot be obtained by eating the bodies of herbivores - properly nourished ones, of course - or using supplements based upon said creatures - for instance, Standard Process and other concentrated organic formulas

Yes, to food based supplements that support healing mechanisms of the body! However, that would include superfood nutrients like quinoa that have benefits for people!

This is partially why wild carnivores still forage (even cats) and eat ingesta (digesting plants).

Unfortunately, I think that many foods fed to pets today lack needed nutrients.

As you know Ginny, some of these phytonutrients are only found in the ingesta of the prey animal.

However, I also know that you will argue this point forever, and that's one of the reasons I love you!

We have much bigger fish to fry my friend.

Every discussion about diet is trumped (sorry) by the power of homeopathy.

And here and now is the best time in our lifetime to discuss it and to be part of a huge shift in medicine.

Regarding feeding plant-based nutrients to cats and dogs, I think we both agree on the one major point.

That is, avoid working against biology with artificial supplements, or anything else that decreases the cellular energy needed to heal.

 

[GinnyW]

No argument here, but certainly an interesting discussion, no? Comments from the floor would be welcome, too Thank you!

 

[JodyLT]

OK, it's a grain; it's not a grain But it's definitely a plant. For me, I wouldn't feed it to a carnivore. Wouldn't need to, wouldn't want to. Dogs can eat tons of things without major incident; cats not so much. If, as in this case, I had an animal to whom every bit of food was significant, I'd try to feed only totally appropriate items. Not a big deal, especially in the amounts in question. Let's just get that kitty eating

Thanks @GinnyW! I do have good news to report! Putting the Primal complete raw for kitties in Pork next to her cherished dry is working!!! I've also primed the pump with giving her dehydrated raw dogs/cats meat treats in the morning when I give some to my dogs before our walk (morning ritual stuff), and she likes most of those I give them - pork, beef, chicken, turkey. Now, she not only has started eating the Primal raw; I've now added some of the Raw Feeding Miami raw chicken or pork as a side dish to branch her out. She likes! I think we're on our way!!!

 

[GinnyW]

Yippee! That's wonderful to hear! Good on you, for being so carefully persistent!

 

[JodyLT]

Yippee! That's wonderful to hear! Good on you, for being so carefully persistent!

Thanks, @GinnyW! It's a process, right?