Polydipsia (drinking a lot)

[Dr. Jeff]

Let's start this topic with a symptom we have recently been discussing.

It's one of those which is seen commonly in pets with no overt dis-ease, Diabetes, decreased kidney function, etc.

Excessive drinking is common (but abnormal).

In fact, balanced cats on a fresh food (especially if raw meat-based) diet may not drink at all.

It is very useful to further define this symptom in order to treat the underlying problem causing it.

In this thread we will be discussing homeopathic treatment so we're presuming that your pets are already eating non-salty fresh food.

So, is the water consumption at any particular time, associated with eating, getting up, coming inside, etc.?

Does your pet only drink larger amounts of water if it is cold, or warm, etc.

Where would you find further excessive drinking and other thirst symptoms in the repertory?

 

[JoanD]

Thank you for your help with Seraphina my 17 year old cat. She drinks a lot of water first thing in the morning. She has done this since I can remember. She was never given dry food except as occasional treats. Over the past several months drinking large amounts of water has extended into several times a day. She recently was diagnosed as hyperthyroid and a heart murmur. I would like to work on alleviating her need for water beyond the fresh, mostly raw diet she eats now. She had been eating quality canned cat food also until the recent diagnosis of hyperthyroid. But now we are using mostly Small Batch chubs as her primary diet with some other fresh organic, grass-fed meats (some cooked, some raw). Would you suggest a benefit from canned, wild-caught sardines in water to help with her omega-3s? Does cooked or raw chicken liver have any benefit? I'm looking for chicken hearts also for taurine. What other foods might be beneficial? I will continue searching out some of the other threads to see what more I can learn here. Many thanks!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hi Joan-

Absolutely! Wild-caught sardines would provide great nutrients for Sera.

Both raw and lightly cooked chicken liver does indeed have additional benefits. However, be sure that they are from organically-raised chickens.

Since the liver can concentrate toxins, try to only use organic liver (chicken, beef, sheep, etc.).

As per AW, other healing foods can include the phytonutrients in the "A"s of: artichokes, apples, arugula and apples.

Regarding foods and supplements for her heart, yes, chicken hearts would be great. You'll also find many of the nutrients in mitochondrial support in Mitochondrial NRG supplement. Other food tips can be found in these posts and in the diet folder:

Fresh Food Feeding Class (in person) - Holistic Actions!

Balance

https://www.holisticactions.com/fresh-feeding-benefits/

Live fresh food class: Fresh Food Feeding Class (in person) - Holistic Actions!

Amy also has an example Instant Pot recipe and video Instant Pot Pet Recipe - Holistic Actions!

Regarding your original "polydipsia" question, I'll start a thread over in the medical folder.

Dr. Jeff

 

[JoanD]

We started Sera (17 yr. old cat) on flower essences and then added some crushed cucumber to her raw food along with D-ribose and a supplement for supporting the heart. She's eating raw chicken giblets now with chicken hearts to see if this will help with her heart murmur. But I wondered if there is a homeopathic remedy I can try for her heart murmur? The murmur is related to an overactive thyroid. I believe the imbalance is also what led to polydipsia? She is still drinking a large amount of water in the morning. But she drinks less overall since we began the additional dietary support. The crushed cucumber is to help with rehydration - something Anthony William recently wrote in a newsletter from Medical Medium. Thank you for your help.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hi Joan-

Great work with the fresh food upgrade!

Raw chicken hearts are perfect. In fact, just these added nutrients are incredibly supportive of heart function.

Regarding an individualized homeopathic medicine, that's a great question. And also the key.

Using a properly personalized remedy is exactly the goal that you are learning about.

This is a critical part of HMDM Step 3 (implementing) that we will spend most of June 23-24 discussing: https://www.holisticactions.com/june-training

In the meantime you can start individualizing by listening to her body and looking for symptom clues: Exactly What to Record When "Talking To" Your Pet - Holistic Actions!

Also, when logged in, you can also start watching, listening or download last year's classes about Describing Symptoms and Understanding Dis-eases at: Non member login - Holistic Actions!

Regarding the specific symptom of the murmur though, you are correct. It is probably secondary to her hyperthyroidism. The hyperthyroidism, heart and kidney issues, etc. can be reversed with an individualized remedy.

Support with diet and supplements definitely can help but usually not reverse the energetic imbalance that caused the problems in the first place.

If you have other questions, feel free to ask for any input.

Dr. Jeff

 

[JoanD]

Below is an email correspondence I recently had with Dr. Jeff about my hyperthyroid cat Sera, beginning with my email to Dr. Jeff:

"I think I may need your opinion on a treatment strategy.
We are treating my cat Sera for her back pain and for the hyperthyroid. My local homeopathic vet thinks Sera looks very good and she doesn’t hear the heart murmur that was evident a few months ago. So your food and supplement regimen must be working on that.

We have begun a remedy that at first seemed to be working but now I think it probably isn’t. My homeopathic vet is away for a week and I’ll contact her when she returns and, I have another appointment with her in two weeks.

Is it dangerous for Sera to keep taking Natrum Mur. beyond 2 weeks if it seems not to be working? I administer it once per day. We began it on 8/2. I have decided to stop giving it now because Sera seems to be in so much pain. Her back pain seems worse now on Natrum Mur.

The other question I have is about treating hyperthyroid. We are using Methimazole, 2.5 mg., 2X per day. Our vet suggested using radiation treatment to kill part of the thyroid.
I’m very concerned about the possible problems with both methimazole and radiation. Can you help me make a more informed decision?

Is it OK for me to wait until we exhaust the different possible remedies over the next few months or will the Methimazole damage Sera? She’s already been on it for over 4 months.

Is there any other possible treatment for Sera? Our veti said that they haven’t have very good success using homeopathics to treat thyroid in cats. But I think Sera is worth the effort since her health and vitality overall are excellent except for her back pain."

Dr Jeff responded:

"Fantastic Joan (all around)!

Excellent news that no murmur. That’s awesome!

Are you giving her any raw chicken hearts?

To answer your dosing question, I wonder what potency of the Nat mur are you using and in what way are you giving it?

I think your doctor would be fine with your giving it in “medicinal solution” (in water) if you are not.

Did you ever see any difference in her since starting  it (this means that it’s similar enough to Sera’s internal imbalance to create a change of some sort).

Personally, I don’t usually advise radioactive iodine therapy because of many reasons including that it’s irreversible (and potentially problematic).

Especially when there is no cardiomyopathy (have you had Sera’s pro BNP rechecked?).

I’d consider keeping her on methimazole and eventually lowering the dose once a homeopathic medicine is helping her body heal. You will see this as her symptoms (especially her lower back pain) improve.

Yes, I would wait and continue as you are doing right now.

Regarding, other treatments, that would depend on her symptoms.

For example, a chiropractor for her back problems (what problems is she having?).

Other great support is the Thyroid Gold supplement: https://www.petwellbeing.com/products/cat-hyperthyroid"

I responded as follows:

"Yes, I am giving chicken hearts when I can get them. I am thawing some now. Also livers and gizzards.

The Natrum Mur. is LM2 potency. I succuss the bottle 10X then mix 10 drops in water that gets stirred for 30 seconds before each .2cc dose. That water is saved for a week and then I make a new batch the same way.
Do you think that is strong enough or should I ask for a stronger dosing?

The difference I saw or thought I was seeing happened within the first few days. She was in less pain and getting around stiffly but I could touch the base of her tail without it hurting. She popped Dr. Facinelli with her claws when she touched the same area at Sera's first appointment. But now Sera's back to being in even more pain than she seemed to be in before starting the remedy. She is sleeping a lot.

I will ask for the ProBNP when the labs are done next. Any others I should ask for?
Sera has two back issues: the base of the tail and hips are very painful as well as her whole back being stiff. The shoulders get knotty/crunchy so that I need to massage them several times a day (and sometimes night) so she can relax. Chiropractic has never worked. Any other suggestions?

I just ordered Thyroid Gold, thanks for that!"

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks for re-posting this Joan.

Please keep us up to date on Sera's progress.

 

[JoanD]

Hi Dr. Jeff,

Can I get your opinion about stopping the remedy after 10 days if it seems not to be helping or making things worse? I didn't give her today's dose because I think it isn't the right one.

On a different note, Jenna suggested Liposomal-C but wanted me to run it past you first. Do you know if that form of vitamin C is OK for cats?

Thanks!

 

[JoanD]

Hi. Dr. Jeff,

My local vet suggested Pulsatilla 6x for Sera this past Friday, August 25. I was to give her one pellet, twice per day until I saw improvement. Unfortunately, as with the Natrum Mur., her back symptoms worsened quickly. I gave her one pellet on Friday afternoon, Saturday morning and Saturday evening. I know it made her worse not only by observing her stiffness but also because she had to get me up on Friday and Saturday nights to put her back into her bed after she got up to urinate. She had lost the ability to jump onto the seat of a chair to climb into her bed. So I stopped giving the Pulsatilla. The pain made her want to hide and sleep. She has been sleeping more.

My vet also said Sera's labs showed kidney disease after starting the methimazole several months ago. Sera's drinking is more throughout the day now with a lot of water consumption. Her disposition is still very sweet and I've gotten her weight back up to 14 lbs. She loves her food but some days eats less than other days. She is getting organ foods that include chicken hearts and livers.

I'll update more once I have spoken with my local vet.

Thanks,

Joan

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks for the update Joan.

Great work knowing to stop the Puls. and describing her response to it!

And fantastic about her regained weight.

That's awesome since hyperthyroid cats (especially if they have kidney involvement) often don't ever get back to their usual weights.

Since she clearly responded to the remedy but aggravated, she might do better with a different potency, less frequency or water dosing (vs. dry pellets).

With the water solution, you could also then modify the dose.

Did she get you up again last night?

How is she doing today?

Thanks again.

 

[JoanD]

Thanks, Dr. Jeff.

I'll speak with my local vet and discuss using water dosing. I made a step for her last night so she could get back into bed on her own. It worked, but now I don't know if she can jump back up on her own without the step. I'm so sleep deprived but maybe I'll take the step away for tonight. I can tell she feels bad when she has to get me up in the middle of the night.

Thank you,

Joan

 

[JoanD]

Hi Dr. Jeff,

I'm still waiting for a response from Dr. Jan, my local vet. In the meantime can you talk a little about how the choice of possible remedies can be narrowed down for Sera. We first tried Natrum Mur. in water. It made her back pain worse even though it seemed better for the first day, so we stopped it. The we tried Pulsatilla and it also gave her worsening back pain and less mobility. How can I know which remedy to try again but at a lower potency? How long should I give it before moving on to another remedy or another potency?

Thank you,

Joan

 

[JoanD]

Hi Dr. Jeff,

Attached is the Silica remedy schedule Jenna made for Sera. We were having a lot of trouble finding the right remedy but were getting a very good result with Silicea for the first 36 hours before it ended up causing more pain like the others. I finally had to have Jenna look at all the remedies that we were considering and to help us put a dosing schedule together. The first dose caused a lot of pain almost right away but we may have given too much. We know to wait until we see improvement before giving the next diluted dose with Q-tip. (Dr. Jeff suggests succussing the current strength in our dropper bottle 5 times, then transferring a teaspoon full into a cup of purified water and giving just a Q-tip amount on the gum.)

Here is lab info from August 23, 2018:

SDMA
24 1
0 - 14 ug/dL
HIGH

CREATININE
3.0
0.9 - 2.5 mg/dL
HIGH

BUN
67
16 - 37 mg/dL
HIGH

CARDIOPET proBNP - FELINE
38 1
0 - 100 pmol/L
Normal

Calcium, Sodium and Potassium are normal as are all other values in the Senior Panel. I was unfortunately not able to make an attachment of the labs.

Here are my questions for today:

1. When should I have Sera’s next labs done and which ones will be most helpful?

2. Is there any supplement or modality we can use that will help with Sera’s kidney function?

Thank you!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hey Joan-

It will be Sera's body's response to the Silica which will determine the dosing schedule.

You mentioned that she aggravated after the dose (1 drop of Silica 3x). It's therefore best not to dose again until you evaluate the degree of her improvement.

For example, if she improves to be even better than she was before the dose and aggravation, then you any next dose should not be given until that improvement stops.

This counter-action of her body is how she will heal.

You then set up your schedule based on that timing.

In addition, since she aggravated from the dose, I'd advise your lowering it the next time. For example, use fewer succussions and use a Q-Tip or toothpick touched to hr gums t administer the dose.

Regarding your #1, monitoring her thyroid, kidneys and blood counts every 3-4 months (until they are stable) would be very helpful.

2. Kidney support includes feeding her organic raw (or freeze-dried) kidney, subcutaneous fluids, and the supplements AminAvast Feline #60 - HomeVet and Rx Renal Feline-#120 - HomeVet (from Rx Vitamins for pets).

In addition, the foods that bears eat after hibernation (when their kidneys are shut down from not urinating all winter).

Pine nuts are one of the foods that can be helpful (if she will eat them).

 

[JoanD]

Do you carry the AminAvast and Rs Renal on your online shop? What is the link to the HA shop?

Thanks!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Yup!

The specific links are in the post, but you can also find them on homevet.com

I now see that you already ordered those supportive supplements.

Please let us know how it goes Joan.

 

[JoanD]

Hello Dr. Jeff,

I have received the AminAvast and RxRenal. Since Sera weighs 14 lbs, I'll plan to give her 1.5 capsules of each. One capsule is for 10 lbs. I also picked up Standard Process Feline Kidney support and will be giving her 1 tablet, twice per day. I gave her a Q-tip of the next dose of Silica and she again quickly shows signs of back pain. It's been 10 days since the last dose was given and she began to feel better a couple of days ago, but I wasn't sure how to tell if it was continuing to improve. It looked like she had reached a plateau. Her mood was better and she was in much less pain. Dr. Jan suggested that we should not begin subcutaneous fluids because they must be continued until the end of life. I give Sera lots of fluids in her food and she has a kitty waterfall she drinks from regularly with spring water and energized water mixed. I don't know how to proceed beyond this. I don't know if I should push the fluid issue. What do you think?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hey Joan-

Great question about SQ fluid support for Sera's kidneys.

You can start and stop giving SQ fluids.

It is always worthwhile to insure that she is well hydrated.

You can tell by her BEAM, skin turgor, gum and tongue moistness and kidney blood test results.

Her internal and external symptoms are the are the guides to whether she needs the fluids or not.

Does that make sense?

 

 

[JoanD]

Hi Dr. Jeff,

I make a lot of broths: chicken, vegetable and beef vegetable. Sera gets more broth than anything else in her diet. Plus, she's getting all the supplements you recommend for her kidneys and thyroid. I also have her on SP Feline Renal Support. Her food contains powdered kelp and dulse flakes, lightly cooked organic chicken livers and hearts and some fresh veggies and the pine nuts you suggested (and wild caught sardines). I pretty much give her more broths than she would eat on her own so she's getting as much fluid as I can get into her without using subcutaneous. I don't know why Dr. Jan seems to think it is a final resort and you can never stop once you start. Anyway, Sera's poops are moist now instead of so dry like they were before I started all the broths. Her coat and eyes look really healthy. We won't have blood tests done for a few more months to check on her kidneys and thyroid but I think we're doing OK for now. The back pain is still bad, especially after the second dose of her remedy which was about a drop from a Q-tip in her mouth. It has been 2 weeks and she's just starting to move with less pain since that dose. I'd love to hear how you think I should proceed with the homeopathic silica for her next. I am ordering the EarthPulse today so maybe that will help.

Thanks,

Joan

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hiya Joan-

You mention that Sera worsens then improves after the Silica doses.

In  general, if there is a worsening of symptoms right after a dose (a homeopathic aggravation), and then improvement, that can be a good reaction.

That is, if there is improvement beyond the symptoms that existed when you gave the dose.

If however there is worsening after a dose and then improvement of that worsening, but no improvement beyond that, a new remedy may be needed.

Does that make sense (or is my wording confusing)?

 

[JoanD]

Hi Dr. Jeff,

No, not confusing at all. I've considered this but I don't know what to do. I don't think Dr. Jan can help any further.

We aren't getting improvement then. It just is an immediate worsening and about 2 weeks or more to get back to zero where we started. If a new remedy is needed, this will be #5 I think. Sera suffers a lot with each new remedy. Could I be doing something wrong?

Also, Dr. Jan seems not able to get past Sera's age (17). I think she's already given up and just wants me to use aspirin or an NSAID. I don't think Sera is ready to give up nor am I. What should we do?

Thank you,

Joan

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hey Joan-

No. I do not see anything wrong that you are doing.

Just the opposite in fact! You're doing everything possible for Sera.

Since the remedies are aggravating her back problems, even though they may be helping internally, you may want to give her a break from them for awhile.

Let's see what Sera's body has to "say".

That is, look for any symptom clues that may guide you to a new remedy for her.

Have you tried warm or cold applications on her back to see if one of those might help?

Have you looked into the EarthPulse device (the magnetic)?

The article is linked about it is <a href="https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fB1iesbPd6gxSL5PDz0OvsbVRz4tGX0l">linked here</a>.

&nbsp;

 

[JoanD]

Thank you for your encouragement. Sera is beginning to shiver. I've noticed this on a few occasions lately as the weather has cooled off. Her body trembles in waves like someone who has been cold for a while and their body can't catch up making heat. I have been making her beds very warm with hot packs and heavy blankets but it is hard to dispel the shivers. Is this a symptom clue? And what should I be doing for her? The shivers are a daily thing now but I can warm her up and get them to stop. Poops are  still moist and her back is a little better but still very stiff and painful. I have not given the silica remedy in 3 weeks. She is still very loving and feels better when i giver her gentle tapping and massage. Main issue is still constant pain.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hey Joan-

Yes, shivering from cold can be a symptom clue.

The full context of any symptom will always help you decide what (if anything) to do about it.

It sounds like the heated beds and hot packs don't often stop her shivering.

If indeed that is the case, then there may may be another symptom trigger (not the cause) like anxiety or discomfort.

The cause is her internal imbalance.

Have you tried any CBDs?

If not, take a look at Hemp Rx as it is a reliable liquid form.

In general, I start with 1 drop of it and then evaluate effects from it to decide what to do.

 

[JoanD]

Hi Dr. Jeff, We did actually try CBD now that we live in the land of hemp (CO). The one we tried  from Nature's Root unfortunately didn't work for us. I was looking at your Homevet store for supplements that might help with pain and arthritis. Sera had/has Lyme disease even though cats don't normally get that. She was treated but has had back pain ever since. Her ears are not getting hot anymore since I've been following your advice. But the back pain is even worse. So, I would like to try Trixsyn Liquid. What do you think?Is it true that chondroitin/glucosamine has not worked in trials? That's what the blurb on the Trixsyn page seemed to be saying. So hyaluronic acid in this form may help? If you could choose only one supplement to try, which would you choose knowing Sera is in terrible pain. I also looked at Vetriflex, Megaflex, Arthroben. Am I missing any? I'd like to try something that won't hurt her but will work with the diet and supplements we're already using to improve her health. Thank you! The EarthPulse should arrive within days. Yay!