Luna & Franky - Deer Velvet for Gingivitis/infection in teeth & gums

[Vani]

I have two kitties that are from the same litter, Franky and Luna who are soon to be 7 years old. Gingivitis has taken hold and most of the infection is in their back teeth. I recently received the Deer Velvet and sprayed it on their back teeth. It took two of us to do it and they didn’t enjoy it. But we are going to try and do it daily.

I appreciate any tips on how often to spray Deer Velvet (daily/weekly?) and best methods to effectively get this product on their back teeth. We sprayed and got their teeth as best we could.

Background: Recently, we went to a local holistic vet who said they would need to do x-rays to see how deep the infection is, that they may need to remove teeth, and they use a flouride treatment (aluminum byproduct which I don’t believe will help) and it would cost $1,800 for each cat. I felt a bit limited in options, until we spoke with Dr. Jeff and ordered Deer Velvet. Do you think it can help stop the infection and save their teeth after seeing the photos? Any success stories would be appreciated ? If they need teeth removed we’ll take them to do so, we’re just hoping to get them to a better state as much as we can.

I had the feeling to brush their teeth with fresh aloe vera, is this something that is helpful and not harmful? I purchase fresh aloe vera often (store bought, grown for consumption).

Current plan: today I started the deer velvet spray. How often should we use this spray? Also, I plan to take photos about 60 days after starting deer velvet, is this enough time to start seeing improvements or should we wait longer?

1. Your pet's name: Luna & Franky (litter siblings, bonded as kittens)
2. Approximate age: currently 6 years old, they will both be 7 yrs old in February 2023
3. Sex Female & Male
4. Neutering status Yes (both)
5. Breed Siamese & Tabby mix (both)
6. Approximate weight: Luna is 10 lbs and Franky is 12 lbs
7. What's their BEAM (behavior, energy, appetite, mood) All are good, except Luna sometimes seems to have difficulty eating as she is eating more slowly than her brother (she used to eat more quickly than him).
8. Diet Raw Turkey from Darwin’s, cooked unsalted wild caught salmon (human food) & unsalted wild caught canned sardines (human food). *They are trying Viva Raw Rabbit this week*
9. Vaccination history / exposure to toxins, other medication: Right when we adopted them, they had ringworm so we didn’t know any better and gave them oral anti-fungals and took them to vet for sulphur baths for a 2 month period. Then later they showed symptoms of a herpetic virus because their eyes would become severely swollen. They were given steroids and antibiotics several times. Then later we learned to give them L-Lysine and that symptom hasn’t come back. They now take the Vimergy L-Lysine, Vimergy Micro-C, and Life Line Icelandic Kelp. They received vaccines up until Sept 2019. They don’t get them any longer.
10. Primary problem, when it began and if there was anything else happening around that time - They’ve had gingivitis since they were young. It’s gotten worse. I wasn’t sure what to do next, so I will be trying Deer Velvet.
11. Is the condition better or worse from exercise, heat, cold, time of day, certain foods, emotional upset, being touched, excitement, etc? Not sure what makes gingivitis better, nothing we’ve tried up until now has made it better.
12. Has any diagnostic work been done? Diagnosis if available (you can attach your diagnostic tests to the post if you have them) I posted photos for both kitties.
13. Current and previous treatment tried brushing but too difficult. We considered getting teeth cleaning treatment but they use flouride so it doesn’t seem like it will work and may do more harm than good.
14. Other health concerns: none currently.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks for sharing the photos Vanya. Luna and Franky are super adorable!

Do you think it can help stop the infection and save their teeth after seeing the photos?

Yes!

’re just hoping to get them to a better state as much as we can.

Have you tried the raw chicken/turkey necks?

I had the feeling to brush their teeth with fresh aloe vera, is this something that is helpful and not harmful?

Yes, this can e helpful.

How often should we use this spray?

1-2x a day based on how well they tolerate it.

 

[Vani]

Thanks for sharing the photos Vanya. Luna and Franky are super adorable!

Thank you ??
It’s a relief to hear that there’s still hope for their teeth after you’ve seen the photos ?

Have you tried the raw chicken/turkey necks?

We will be checking at Whole Foods to see if they offer organic raw turkey necks. I’m hoping to find an organic option. Luna sometimes throws up after eating chicken, but is the chicken neck as irritating as the meat? If not I may consider that if it’s more easily available as an organic option.
How often should we have them chew on the raw necks, like once a week or more often? Also, how long should we have them chew on the necks each time?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

is the chicken neck as irritating as the meat?

It's not irritating per se. Depending on their individuality, some do better with chicken than turkey. Other individuals are just the opposite.

How often should we have them chew on the raw necks

Chewing on the necks in the problematic areas for 5-10 minutes a day works best. Ideally they would enjoy their chewing and you could make it a game/treat. Again, it depends on what each kitty likes and does well with.

The first step is to see if you can find the necks and the next step is to see if they like them.

You can start them out by holding the necks while they chew. This often makes it more fun (because you are part of the game) and you can have them chew using the most problematic teeth.

 

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

There is quite a bit of tartar on those teeth, which is creating an area under it where bacteria can collect. Neck bones may help remove it, but keep an eye on it. As long as tartar is there, the gums will be susceptible.

 

[GinnyW]

A little bit sideways here, but I sorta needed to vent: I wrote about using Teef! and ProBright, but some careful examination disclosed some really horrid spots on the small molars, thick, dark, crusty - these were not so bad at the last physical, so I was shocked. I have already booked a cleaning with my vet, whom I trust and love, but was racking my brain for a reason they were so bad.
Now, some of you know I'm the queen of hardcore raw meat and bone diet for dogs, but following a recent suggestion from my (other) TCM-trained vet I had added some vegetable matter to his diet, in the form of minced-up celery and radish to address "dampness" in his skin and tissues. This in itself seems corrected, but, since I had previously never seen this sort of tooth response, I have decided to skip the vegetables for now, to see if the deposits lessen. They are, honestly, shockingly bad - and recent: 5-6 months. Now, this may vary with both dog and diet, but I'm going back to my roots for the duration, as carnivore queen. Cleaning is scheduled in March, and I will continue with the dental adjuncts. I'm pondering carnivore diet: what do wolves eat? Captive wolves? Perhaps the small percentage of veg folks add does provoke dental issues - or not. Any input on implications for teeth or general health would be interesting to explore.... Thanks!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

what do wolves eat? Captive wolves?

My understanding Ginny is that the source of the dental issues, for pups eating species-appropriate diets, is related to chronic and inherited dis-ease and vaccinosis.

I'm not sure about the rapid onset tho. Is it possible that the last dental exam was not as thorough?

 

[GinnyW]

I agree, on the sources of predilection for dental issues, of course. But this boy is almost 11, and had no significant dental issues, other than one cracked molar - the risks of bones - we extracted at about 7. His last exam was admittedly cursory - just a look inside by my vet and me - but did not show any signs of this nasty overgrowth - and, had it, we would have pursued it. I see no downside to eschewing the veg, for now. I'm just perplexed about the necessity of feeding veg: perhaps a tiny percentage would be somewhat beneficial, and not intolerable, or just some powerful adjunct like mushrooms, algae, fish guts, etc. - all of which we already use anyway - would supply the really cool nutrients Thank you for your input; this fascinates me, of course.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

I see no downside to eschewing the veg, for now

Neither do I.

Especially with the excellent broad spectrum supplementation that he is receiving.

I'd be very suspicious of the carbs in the veggies...

Tho we will see!

Thanks for another interesting experiment Ginny!

 

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

Celery and radish have virtually no starchy carbs, so I wouldn't worry about those. The fiber in celery could actually be helpful. Animal foods contain no fiber.

How about feeding partially-frozen meat chunks to increase the scouring action on the teeth/gums? Also, more vertebrae, which are less apt to splinter and provide good chewing resistance. Tough ligamentous tissues are good flossers, too.

Here's a great article that addresses the "hassle factor" inherent in feeding carnivores (in this case, cheetahs) and the results: Our Squeamishness About Food Is Harming Our Animals

Here's an older article of mine that cites some of this research: littlebigcat.com/does-dry-food-clean-the-teeth/

 

[GinnyW]

When I was a kid our city zoo - San Francisco - made a big deal out of big cat feeding times, audience encouraged. They got readily identifiable and large chunks of animal, likely horse, and made a nice display of growling and slobbering over them. Ah, progress, making life worse for us all, under the guise of some twisted morality....
Anyway, my 68 pound kid eats racks of lamb ribs, BIG turkey necks, pork shoulder blades, chicken and duck carcasses, sardines and mackerel, along with some ground tripe to carry supplements. He gets raw cow's milk, and small amounts of ground beef, bacon and/or cream cheese to disguise pills. Were he to eat celery and radish, he would be getting carbs - that's all there is in there - and I think it's quite possible the sugars feed bacteria to some degree. So, we shall remove one variable at a time... Thank you for your input, and I agree, but will mind the sugars.

 

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

To clarify for everyone, yes: celery and radish are mostly carbs (with a tiny bit of protein). All veggies (including--or especially--grains) ultimately break down into carbs.

BUT there is a very important distinction between starchy carbs, like corn, potatoes, legumes, and fruit, which are generally NOT appropriate for carnivores, and indigestible carbs, i.e., fiber. Fiber is the biggest part of those particular veggies.

(Although wild canids, especially foxes and coyotes, do eat fruit and veggies when they can get them, it's not a huge part of their diet.)

Fiber (which only comes from plants) feeds the GOOD bacteria in our guts that support the microbiome, which in turn produces vital signaling molecules like betahydroxybutyrate.

I personally do low carb, but I don't hesitate to eat celery *or* radishes (or greens or crucifers). Daikon radish is a great substitute for those yummy but nasty potatoes that taste so good...

The meats you feed all contain relatively small and/or thin bones for such a *petite* dog as yours! So maybe something a little tougher might help?

The San Francisco Zoo was a highlight of my childhood, too! I'm trying to get more detailed info, but so far I'm told they still feed horsemeat! ?