Hemangiosarcoma presumptive diagnosis

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

Sorry I'm so late chiming in... one thing I love for anemia is Standard Process Dessicated Spleen. My hemophiliac cat ate them on their own as treats, he seemed to know he needed them.

Also, while fish oil is definitely out, green-lipped mussel oil (which has EPA, DHA etc.) doesn't have that effect. The brand I use (Moxxor, use code DRJEAN to get a discount) comes in very tiny capsules, so would be easy-ish (recognizing her reluctance!) to pill if she won't eat it in food.

Please keep us posted!

 

[LilF]

@AlysonR @lizkunz @heart500 Hey all, wanted to update you..... internet has been out most of last night so I am way behind. Gabby went to the acupuncture vet yesterday. She got the B12 shot as suggested here, she got fluids and she got a pepto bismol shot for her nausea. None of that helped her eat last night or this morning. I had to syringe the thyroid meds with the water into her mouth (better than nothing I guess).So as suggested, the cornucopia food---I did leave a message for them and wondered if it can be found at a retail store. The nurse called me back and gave me some great suggestions about food prep on how to get Gabby to eat. She said once they don't eat for a while, they get used to not eating and it is harder. She said to put something tasty in the pocket of her mouth. I stood behind her so she did not bolt and after a few tries, she ate a keto steak I fried up in butter (just hope her Protein Losing Enteropathy does not complain with the fatty content of butter and beef). Success though, I will order some of the food and and the sulphorophane powder. I wish I had known about this company mid year when I was trying to incorporate something balanced into the homemade diet for her Protein Losing Enteropathy when she stabilized. I hope gaps in the diet did not contribute to her devastating diagnosis here. She loved the beef steak and then ate her cookies. Interesting she did not even want her cookies last night after the pepto shot and fluids, she actually vomited. I had another dog back in 2014 I gave pepto to and HE vomited too... so what is the deal? The vet suggested omeprazole but I hate those anti acid drugs and I would not be able to get it in her anyway as I am not pushing pills right now. The pepto made her sick I think, I saw lip licking today. I went to the conventional vet today and we were talking about Gabby and he mentioned the Entyce product..... What do you all think of that? I am not using it now but have it if needed. I actually don't like these kind of things. I was thinking of dissolving some glutamine powder (which she has had in her food for a year for her PLE) dissolving it in the water. But I don't want her not to drink water if she is turned off by it. The holistic vet also did some "emotional " work with a crystal, the weirdest thing ever where it will rotate in response to Gabby's feelings...seems hokey but I am open to everything! I also got a consultation with a vet who is known to deal with cancer . He doesn't usually do them but I sent an email and he was kind enough to agree to do one. I am awe inspired and grateful. Of course again, I have to be able to get things into Gabby for anything to do any good. I asked the acupuncturist about the homeopathy. She agreed you don't do chinese medicine WITH homeopathy as I thought. So I have to make a decision. I have heard so much good about homeopathy and this may be much easier than supplements. The acupuncturist was going to do acupuncture yesterday and I declined. I asked what it would do, she said "wall off the tumor". I don't know everything at all but to me with a blood born cancer, seems that it could spread the cancer worse. I say this because (and I am blaming nobody---how would anyone have known)after the laser acupuncture is when Gabby went down. So now I am worried about my other dog JJ getting it but his spleen is removed. I feel it HAS benefitted him along with the chinese herb she gave him.... Sorry to be so long winded. You all have been a great help to me support and information and I am grateful. BTW, after yesterday, GAbby did go to the park and walked an hour--yes a lot of sniffing but she did not want to get back in the car to go home. She loves to walk but I read your post on the exercise concern, noted and will check it out, hard to deny her of this big quality of life issue.

 

[LilF]

@AlysonR I was waiting here for my appointment with Dr. Sagrera, thought it was at 2PM Eastern. When I caled to make the appointment theyu said their zone is Central. So I asked WHAT TIME IS IT THERE NOW? They told me a time that was 2 hrs different from my time. So I did the math and since my appointment today was 12noon Central I assumed my appointment was 2PM EAstern. So I took my dogs out in the sun for a short walk at 1 and had a message when I got home that I missed my appointment. So I am very upset. Dr. has a few other patients now and not sure she can get to me. So I will have to waste this beautiful sunny day inside when the dogs should be out. I sure wish when I have aconsultation, they would send an email saying what time in MY TIME ZONE the appointment is at. When the gal said it was 2 hrs later than my time when I called, someone cannot tell time.... I busted my butt sending and collecting records and well I guess if it does not pan out then maybe it was not meant to be.

 

[LilF]

I got to talk to Dr. Sagrera late in the day about Gabby 14 y/o shap pei mix... She is very generous to work so long on a saturday especially with the appointment kerfuffle. So she told me to get Cinchona officianolis and my health food store does carry it. She said to get 6 or 30c Is one better than the other? Also she said I could smash the pellets in an envelope and I mentioned what I heard here about dipping the q tip into distilled water and swipe some remedy on the q tip and apply to mouth? Do I do that ONCE or till the powder is gone? OR can I dissolve the pellets in a syringe and shoot it in her mouth---the entire syringe--lets say about 5 ml? That is what I do with her thyroid, dissolve and shoot it into her. She doesn't really let me and I am never sure if she gets the dose. I am equally worried I may think I she will have gotten the homeopathic and then maybe I would not have gotten it into her mouth. Dr. Sagrera said to do it once and let her know in a couple days. BTW, she DID agree that laser should not be done on dogs with cancer. She thought Gabby may have had a low level cancer as I told her that the nodules in the spleen had grown slightly even though the hospital said they would not---they Did grow over a year's time. She also advised me to get an ultrasound for the other dog JJ with the back problems worse than Gabby before HE gets anymore treatments. I wholeheartedly resonate with that and that was my gut feeling for Gabbythat I ignored. Please do not ignore your gut feelings and intuition. I had asked several times about this very thing and I got eyes rolled at me as if I was a nut. Please address my questions about the remedy and thank you

 

[LilF]

How do I manage Gabby's nausea so she will eat. She eats some but not a whole meal? Cerenia? I watched videos and they say some dogs take it while getting chemo? I don't like it but sometimes it is necessary unless there is another way. I did put Glutamine powder in the water but still no increase in appetite.

Also, I purchased the homeopathic today and posted some earlier questions. I thought I read on this forum once you can put it on the dogs inner ear? What about a syringe into the mouth, Should distilled water be used? Any information would be helpful to know since she has not smiled in days and want to help her. I joined the facebook group someone recommended a few days ago and waiting to be approved so maybe will also get ideas there too. Thanks to the members who answered, greatly appreciated!

 

[AlysonR]

Sorry to catch this so late. Don't obsess! That's hard, very hard -- I know. I think things like: did I get the remedy too close to something electronic? Maybe that's why it didn't work. Etc. But...with homeopathy, the important thing is the timing, not the amount. It doesn't really matter how much you put in, though it's usually 3 to 6 pillules (little sugar pills). Don't touch it with your hands. Pour the pills from the cap. I used to pour them into a spoon, take a second spoon and crush the pills with that, then pour the result into the cheek pocket. Doesn't matter if it all goes in, or even if she spits a bunch out. As long as some gets in her -- preferably on
the mucous membranes (cheek pouch, under the tongue, etc....). More later...

 

[AlysonR]

Dr. Sagrera is as dedicated to helping your dog as you are. I know for mine, she was willing to help me as long as my dog and I were willing to keep going. At one point, though, I read the signs, and my dog was ready to say goodbye. I wish I could say it was a sweet going, but it wasn't. The vet handled it poorly. So it goes... Anyway, I hope you've gotten the remedy into Gabby. Now that you know quantity isn't so important, but timing is, maybe you'll be able to just dump some "sugar dust" (from crushed pills) into her cheek pouch as often as required.

FYI, the higher the number, the greater the strength of the remedy (30c would be stronger than 6c would be stronger than 6x) -- but higher strength is not always better. I'm surprised Dr. Sagrera didn't give you a preferred strength.

Really sorry to hear the time got mixed up. I rely on the internet (google: time in LA) to get the difference, but you're having problems with the internet...

My one experience with an appetite stimulating drug was with my dog, Shadow, who had Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia. She hadn't been eating (and she was a Lab mix, so food was her middle name). The oncologist wanted to try some chemo, and we needed to get her to eat, so the oncologist gave her an appetite stimulant. My dog immediately wolfed down some cooked chicken liver. And then I took her home and she looked absolutely miserable and refused to eat anything more. I really wish I hadn't tried to get her to eat through the stimulant. She was ready to say goodbye.

I do have a neighbor whose dog wouldn't eat for a whole week -- and is now fine and jumping about the backyard. No idea what was wrong with the dog. The vet thought the dog was a goner.

If there's something you're giving Gabby that's making her nauseous, then yes, you need to rethink things. I think it's OK to stop any supplements that are making her nauseous -- for the time being. Especially if they're for long term things not related to this cancer. *BUT I'M NOT A VET!!!! SO THIS IS STRICTLY A LAYPERSON'S OPINION!* (Feel free to ignore it, look for other people who agree or disagree, etc.) If Gabby isn't eating because she's just not interested in eating, that's a whole different matter.

 

[GinnyW]

Lil, Dr. Sagrera should have said SOMEthing about dosing. We are not your homeopath, and some of us are not vets either. That said, the last thing I'd do is dump a bunch of pillules in her. One very common and safe way to dose is to dissolve ONE pellet, stir that ten times, and then use that Q-tip to just touch the wetness to the inside of her cheek. If you get a result, tell the doc. If you don't, you can repeat ONCE and wait to see. This is very conservative, but perhaps close to what she had in mind. Stay in touch with her.

 

[LilF]

Gabby seems to have a more puffy abdomen as of yesterday. I did not start the homeopathic Cinchona oficianalis because Dr. Sagrera is not there on sun or mon. (talked to her saturday). So with the puffiness I did not know if I should push the yunnan baiyou which seemed to help her mood after I REstarted it yesterday, or take the chance the homeopathic might do "something" but not "enough" I did not think I could give both. I guess I could give her a call but I need to know the best thing and wanted to start early.
Also, can fluid be drained and does the dog have to be sedated and is there discomfort? I remember once a holistic doctor told me as in the case of heart failure, once the fluid is drained the dog feels a lot better. In the case of hemangiosarcoma why would fluid collect in the abdomen. I thought bleeding was the issue. I am up early today trying to get some information and opinions so I can get a head start on anything I can do.

Lil, Dr. Sagrera should have said SOMEthing about dosing. We are not your homeopath, and some of us are not vets either. That said, the last thing I'd do is dump a bunch of pillules in her. One very common and safe way to dose is to dissolve ONE pellet, stir that ten times, and then use that Q-tip to just touch the wetness to the inside of her cheek. If you get a result, tell the doc. If you don't, you can repeat ONCE and wait to see. This is very conservative, but perhaps close to what she had in mind. Stay in touch with her.

Hi Ginny

The reason input is so important is that they generate questions to ask the doctor, homeopath, oncologist, whoever... so I appreciate the information. Dr. Sagrera told me to crush 2-3 pellets and I can put those in her mouth, or dissolve them. I did not know about stirring and then that poses the question, does it have to be a bowl or whatever. When I used to give the other dog a homeopathic remedy I would pound it on my palm about 30 times I left a message for the homeopathic doctor to call me before I decide to give her the Yunnan Baiyao over the homeopathic. I do need some results and cannot "wait " for 2 days for a remedy to not have any effect. The Yunnan is somewhat anti inflammatory and more of a sure thing. Those are my thoughts. This whole thing happened so fast. Her mood is better today after the Yunnan. But she still doesn't take her thyroid pill. I don't know how important her thyroid is ---I was syringing it in. I know how tired I feel without mine.

 

[LilF]

Dr. Sagrera is as dedicated to helping your dog as you are. I know for mine, she was willing to help me as long as my dog and I were willing to keep going. At one point, though, I read the signs, and my dog was ready to say goodbye. I wish I could say it was a sweet going, but it wasn't. The vet handled it poorly. So it goes... Anyway, I hope you've gotten the remedy into Gabby. Now that you know quantity isn't so important, but timing is, maybe you'll be able to just dump some "sugar dust" (from crushed pills) into her cheek pouch as often as required.

FYI, the higher the number, the greater the strength of the remedy (30c would be stronger than 6c would be stronger than 6x) -- but higher strength is not always better. I'm surprised Dr. Sagrera didn't give you a preferred strength.

Really sorry to hear the time got mixed up. I rely on the internet (google: time in LA) to get the difference, but you're having problems with the internet...

My one experience with an appetite stimulating drug was with my dog, Shadow, who had Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia. She hadn't been eating (and she was a Lab mix, so food was her middle name). The oncologist wanted to try some chemo, and we needed to get her to eat, so the oncologist gave her an appetite stimulant. My dog immediately wolfed down some cooked chicken liver. And then I took her home and she looked absolutely miserable and refused to eat anything more. I really wish I hadn't tried to get her to eat through the stimulant. She was ready to say goodbye.

I do have a neighbor whose dog wouldn't eat for a whole week -- and is now fine and jumping about the backyard. No idea what was wrong with the dog. The vet thought the dog was a goner.

If there's something you're giving Gabby that's making her nauseous, then yes, you need to rethink things. I think it's OK to stop any supplements that are making her nauseous -- for the time being. Especially if they're for long term things not related to this cancer. *BUT I'M NOT A VET!!!! SO THIS IS STRICTLY A LAYPERSON'S OPINION!* (Feel free to ignore it, look for other people who agree or disagree, etc.) If Gabby isn't eating because she's just not interested in eating, that's a whole different matter.

 

[LilF]

@AlysonR Hi Alyson, Sincerely sorry for the bad experience with Magic at the end.... Happened to me with a dog euthanized at my home in 2016... did not get a chance to say goodbye because she came in and literally stabbed my dog with a needle AFTER I said "I want to be holding him" He immediately stopped breathing and fell over. Not exactly the sendoff that was consistent with the care, compassion and love given to the dog his whole life. I have to call a number of docs today to get information. I know draining her fluid may be a bandaid. Today she is more alert than yesterday when she did not want to go for a walk. I appreciate the information for consideration. Vets do not know everything. (people in any profession do not know everything) There have been a number of times I HAD THE BEST SOLUTION. An internationally known vet told me that Gabby's low albumin was due to her age and not to worry. I ignored that and thankfully I did. Again, with both my dogs, my vets blew me off with their tumors or diseases that could have been fatal had I not pushed them to dig deeper. So when people say "but I am not the vet" neither am I but it is because of ME that my dogs live longer than they would have.

 

[LilF]

I left a message for Dr. Sagrera. I gave Gabby the Cinchona Officionalis on Wed. Gave her 3 pellets of powder in her mouth. That night she displayed some prey behavior interested in small animals under boxes or around the house. Today she was interested in more prey behaviour around the house in the pachasandra. I ALSO noticed her lipoma grew bigger. Previously I noticed it seemed to be a bit smaller. I am very upset. I do not know if this is an effect of the homeopathic remedy but I cannot even look at it, the size of a baseball. I left a message but did not know if it is an emergency She is not in saturdays so I guess I wait till tuesday. I gave her Entyce to stim her appetite yesterday and she ate well, licking the plate. Today NOT INTERESTED in her food even though I gave a dose of the Entyce. I talked to 5 vet professionals since last saturday. I just ordered 400 dollars worth of the mushrooms and she isn't eating wlll. One vet said that she is dying if she doesn't eat. I am tired of running after her with a syringe of b vitamin, the yunnan baiyao. I make homemade meals and they get thrown away or the other dog eats them. Tomorrow I feed kibble and save myself several hours of work. If she is going to die, why prolong the matter. She walked today an hour and 10 min in the park and in the morning another 45 min she was out. One vet said maybe I should give her prednisone for her PLE which he felt was not addressed (HER albumin IS about normal but he said she was not absorbing things. Her bone marrow he said was not producing RBC, her reticulocytes are low. Did anyone notice this before ? I had her tested every 3 months. The vet I talked to does not do consults but made an exception for me. He was very thorough but if Gabby won't open her mouth then it is over . I suspect the lipoma is not a lipoma but a hemangio or otherwise due to the rate and size. Yes fat was drawn out but there can be something else deeper. So waiting to hear from Dr. Segrera and if the lipoma gets any bigger.... I don't know if I should call the emerg number because I do not know what an emergency in homeopathic mistake would be. As i said I was watching the lipoma daily and it appeared to be regressing and now it is HUGE

 

[LilF]

Well still no word from anyone in homeopath office. I do not think that is going to work out. I don't think it works fast enough. I think she should have given me something for appetite or upset stomach. She had diarrhea today. Why can't I give Gabby some nux vomica. She seems like she has stomach upset licking the floor. It worked on another dog years ago. I can give her a couple of pellets. She is suffering, depressed and I cannot get the supplements into her to arrest the cancer some. I will stop the yunnan baiyao . People say it does not cause upset stomach but maybe when it is syringed it does. Well back to Facebook I guess.

 

[GinnyW]

Lil, homeopathy requires patience. The remedy she prescribed is not a quick symptomatic fix. It is chosen to address Gabby's entire constitutional picture, to go deep into her system and actually fix the source of all her symptoms. This can take a long time; you won't necessarily even begin to see results - or, if you see them, you won't associate them with the remedy. If you give a remedy such as Nux, in hopes of addressing a symptom, this is just a knee-jerk reaction, not by any means a deep constitutional use. It won't slow down healing, but it likely will not advance it either.
So, a little patience, and a lot less fussing about every little thing, would allow her to respond to Dr. Sagrera's prescription. I'd ease up on other treatments, except for the thyroid, which controls the speed of her metabolism. Deep breath, please

 

[LilF]

Does anyone know about this.. .Last night at midnight or so I gave Gabby the emergency Yunnan Baiyao pill. this morning her gums are still a bit pale. Would I give another emergency pill or give her usual 2 capsule dosage and how long do you have to wait before another emergency pill is given? I know some people here have used this and may know... Thank you

 

[AlysonR]

Just use the normal 2 capsule dosage. I was worried about the same thing. Dr. Sagrera seemed really reluctant to give a second emergency pill. I did, finally, but it was a couple of days later.

 

[AlysonR]

I just read your question about Dr. Sagrera's emergency number. Yes, call her! There'll be a (small, to me) fee, but so what. Dr. Sagrera is thoroughly committed to the animals. The fact that Gabby's gums are still a bit pale most likely means she is still bleeding internally. That's something homeopathy can help with -- but Dr. Sagrera would be the best to figure that out, as she's the one that prescribed the more constitutional remedy.

Some types of homeopathy work quickly -- e.g. Arnica on a nascent bruise. Some work more slowly, e.g. 'constitutional remedies'. But, as you say, if the dog dies before the constitutional remedy has a chance to kick in....

Contact Dr. Sagrera ASAP on the emergency number.

 

[LilF]

@AlysonR Hi Alyson, my internet has been out all day since this morning.....So yes, I did call the number and pressed 2 which was supposed to go to her emergency number. I called I think late morning and never heard back. I was hearing some people use phosphorus and wanted the details on that. I finally went to the store and purchased some phosphorus 30c and 6c but it says for dizziness and sleep.. So I am confused why people were using it with the Yunnan. I did refrain from giving her another emergency pill and decided to give the Yunnan 3 times today. Her gums seem pinker best I can tell. She is also eating a bit better with the Entyce I left Dr. Sagrera all the particulars. At the rate of 2 pills three times a day, I am going to need more fast. Is there a trusted source for it you know of. One of my doctors only would give me 3 boxes. You have been a great help and support to me and I thank you from the bottom of my heart on behalf of Gabby as well. These decisions are so difficult like on that second emergency pill...

 

[AlysonR]

No such thing as a fast source of Yunnan Baiyao. I actually got some from Walmart (online). It was in a green box, instead of in a blue box. As I understand it, that just means it had instructions that included things the FDA doesn't allow (claims of efficacy). I think I also bought some from "New Green Nutrition". If you have any local health food stores, try there, too.

I'm surprised Dr. Sagrera didn't give you her cell phone number. Not my place to do so. Next time you call the office, you should mention that you tried the emergency line and never got a response.

Treat the tumor as a surgery you're trying to get to heal...

 

[LilF]

No such thing as a fast source of Yunnan Baiyao. I actually got some from Walmart (online). It was in a green box, instead of in a blue box. As I understand it, that just means it had instructions that included things the FDA doesn't allow (claims of efficacy). I think I also bought some from "New Green Nutrition". If you have any local health food stores, try there, too.

I'm surprised Dr. Sagrera didn't give you her cell phone number. Not my place to do so. Next time you call the office, you should mention that you tried the emergency line and never got a response.

Treat the tumor as a surgery you're trying to get to heal...