Fish oil/other supplements for joint support?

[DanielleDL]

Bobby's surgeon (corrective wedge osteotomy in October 2021) recommended 4000mg of total EPA/DHA (including what's in his food) and Dasuquin for Bobby for long-term joint support after his surgery in October. The surgeon recommended GNC Triple Strength Fish Oil (1000mg per capsule) and Dasuquin w/MSM. We have been giving both daily since the surgery (along with Super Snouts Joint Power (GLM), but I'd like to hear if (1) we should switch away from these brands NOW due to any long-term problems that are known or suspected, or (2) these are fine for now, but in the future we recommend XXX, or (3) these are fine, just stick with them if they're not causing any known issues for Bobby. (I'm trying to cut back on the spending because I'm hemorrhaging money on Bobby stuff, that's why I'm asking if it's safe to continue using what we have. But obviously if they're going to potentially cause problems, I'll bite the bullet and switch now).

Any thoughts?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hey Danielle-

I'd like to hear if (1) we should switch away from these brands NOW due to any long-term problems that are known or suspected, or (2) these are fine for now, but in the future we recommend XXX, or (3) these are fine, just stick with them if they're not causing any known issues for Bobby.

If Bobby is not currently lame you may want to start weaning the supplements starting with MSM. Here's the Dausiquin without the MSM:

Dasuquin® Chewable Tablets

Dasuquin® is the #1 joint health brand recommended by veterinarians* and combines the demonstrated benefits and synergies of ASU, glucosamine, and chondroitin sulfate. Dasuquin chewable tablets provide a tasty and convenient option for supporting your dog's joint health!

www.dasuquin.com

It may also be much more cost effective to eventually only use the GLM to support his joints.

Regarding the GNC fish oil, I can't tell if they are triglyceride form or molcularly distilled. If they are the former, then they're great to use for maintenance (maybe try weaning down to just 1 or 2/day)

 

[DanielleDL]

If Bobby is not currently lame you may want to start weaning the supplements starting with MSM. Here's the Dausiquin without the MSM:

Great info @Dr. Jeff ! No, he's not currently lame, but he does still have a little occasional weakness in his surgery leg (occasional nail drag or quick switch to stronger leg when turning or getting up/down. But over all, the surgery leg is strong; he consistently puts weight on it, no problem). I've discussed this with his physical therapist, and she said he may just be a little hoppity on that leg for life due to arthritis in that leg. That said, do you still recommend removing the MSM? If so, how should I wean him off, and can I keep the remaining ones in the freezer for future use should he somehow screw up that leg and become lame? (if not, no problem throwing the rest out)

Thanks for the link to the Dasuquin w/o MSM! If switching to those, are they taken for life?

It may also be much more cost effective to eventually only use the GLM to support his joints.

Regarding the GNC fish oil, I can't tell if they are triglyceride form or molcularly distilled. If they are the former, then they're great to use for maintenance (maybe try weaning down to just 1 or 2/day)

Do you feel confident that GLM is potentially the better alternative to fish oil? I've read that, but just wanted to get your take on it. And weaning down the fish oil won't be a problem at all. And I can cut it out entirely once they're gone and just do GLM if you feel that's enough for long term joint care (both because of his surgery leg/arthritis and overall large dog joint care).

Again, thanks for the input! Glad I asked!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

do you still recommend removing the MSM? If so, how should I wean him off, and can I keep the remaining ones in the freezer for future use should he somehow screw up that leg and become lame? (if not, no problem throwing the rest out)

Thanks for the link to the Dasuquin w/o MSM! If switching to those, are they taken for life?

Yes, it's best to not use (or use minimally) any drug or supplement that powerfully covers up symptoms (the language of the body).

No, ideally nothing is taken for life (except good food, air, water, etc.) Doing so is a great way to cover up important symptom clues. Without symptoms, a dog (or any living being) seems fine--until they're suddenly really sick. Unfortunately this is the dominant vet model (covering up symptoms).

One example is the 6 year young Golden who suddenly came down with an aggressive cancer.

This horrible dis-ease seemingly came out of the blue. Except that there were oodles of "normal" (actually common but not normal) symptoms that had been covered up for years.

How to Use Clues From Your Animal Companions to Promote Optimal Health - Holistic Actions!

www.holisticactions.com

This symptom manipulation started when he was a puppy with a bit of ear discharge and redness diagnosed as an "infection" (which was treated with the standard anti-biotic/anti-inflammatory ear treatment ).

Do you feel confident that GLM is potentially the better alternative to fish oil?

No (sorry). I'm aware only of the much greater research and experience in fish-derived omega-3s. That being said, there's mounting evidence for GLM.

However, one of my sources in NZ says that much of the GLM in the US is 50% less potent (this might be marketing hype and I have not investigated this claim).

I bet @Dr. Jean has more to say about GLM and I'm curious to hear what vet homeopath extraordinaire @Dr. Sara has to say about symptom manipulation, MSM and long term use of supplements.

BTW-There are other resources in your member area about mindful use of supplements.

Can Nutritional Supplements Hurt Your Pets? - Holistic Actions!

www.holisticactions.com

Should You Use Supplements for Your Lame and Arthritic Pets? - Holistic Actions!

www.holisticactions.com

 

[DanielleDL]

Thanks as always @Dr. Jeff . I think it's time that Bobby had a full evaluation by a holistic vet in order to optimize his health. I posted a question to Dr. Christina in this thread about whether it would be just as effective to have a remote holistic vet + an in-person open-minded conventional vet or whether it would be better to drive 40+ minutes (most likely more because of Bay Area traffic) to the nearest holistic vet that might be taking new clients. Do you have any thoughts on which arrangement is most beneficial?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

You're super welcome Danielle. Thank you for wanting to work with Bobby's body using nature's roadmap.

Yes I do have thoughts about this (they're in the other thread).

 

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

I like the GLM oil because it is milder in flavor, and contains the broadest spectrum of Omega-3s (there are 18, not just the 3 we are familiar with). ETA in particular (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722199/) is a more powerful anti-inflammatory than EPA. I use Moxxor (I am one of their veterinary advisors/distributors). Here's some more info: MOXXOR Omega-3s | Little Big Cat

 

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

Wait, I just re-read above. FOUR thousand mg? How much does Bobby weigh? That is a massive amount for a dog. No wonder your finances are stretched!! I'm sure it's fine to finish out the ones you have and, as Dr. Jeff suggested, maybe cut back the dose.

The GNC product says it contains soybeans but doesn't list soy in the ingredients... hmm. Honestly, I don't find GNC products to be nearly as superior as they claim to be, especially for the price.

BTW, Moxxor, which is from NZ, contains 350 mg EPA/DHA per tiny capsule, but even a big dog doesn't need much (the dose for #150 human is 2 capsules a day) because there are no filler oils and it is extraordinarily bioavailable. I actually worked for Nordic Naturals, and I quit because -- despite years of supplementation -- after just 3 days of Moxxor I felt so much better! (Nevertheless, if you want to use a fish oil, I would still use Nordic, it is far cleaner than other fish oils.

Re MSM, I don't consider that it "masks" pain. It is a source of elemental sulfur, a crucial component of collagen, the main building block of connective tissue (ligaments, joint capsules, and scar tissue--which can help stabilize a joint post-op). It's especially important in older animals, who don't digest as well and may be deficient (sulfur it isn't a required nutrient in dog food). Dasuquin is fine, but it's all not that high in glucosamine/chondroitin, which are always important for dogs. The Boswellia in Dasuquin is a great pain reliever and anti-inflammatory; personally I use the Standard Process product, Boswellia Complex, for my arthritis.

 

[DanielleDL]

Thanks for your input @Dr. Jean ! Yeah, I thought that 4000mg of EPA/DHA was a bit high as well (Bobby's 65#). When we first got Bobby, I had no access to holistic doc care information yet, so I thought, "I'm just going to trust the professionals until I know more what I'm doing." Just because I'd been seeing naturopaths for years, I didn't want to assume I knew what was best for a dog. Now I'm realizing that I could've gone with a lot of what I know (but obviously I didn't learn that until I got here). And I agree with you. I bought the GNC brand during my "trust" phase but never really trusted it's claims of quality (and we were pretty strapped after the cost of the surgery, so the price was right). And I, too, like GLM because of it's broad range of Omega-3s (I think I actually read that paper you referenced). The Super Snouts Joint Power is from NZ GLM as well, but it's in powder form and reasonably priced (probably because it's a powder). But once it runs out, sure, I could try the Moxxor (if that's what Dr. Jeff and I deem necessary after our initial evaluation).

Re MSM, I don't consider that it "masks" pain. It is a source of elemental sulfur, a crucial component of collagen, the main building block of connective tissue (ligaments, joint capsules, and scar tissue--which can help stabilize a joint post-op). It's especially important in older animals

Great info. I would think that since Bobby is 6 months post-op, I would think his leg would be fully healed by now (the surgery leg might never be that of his non-surgery leg--there may always be some medial laxity-but it's strong, the joint is straight, and the leg has shown muscle redevelopment as per his PT.). And something I forgot to mention before, was the surgeon also found mild hip dysplasia. The over all goals of all the recommendations of the surgeon were (1) help heal the surgery leg, and (2) support his joints long term since he's a large breed. The surgeon (and his allopathic vet) also recommended is that he be kept slightly (based on how he looks, not so much on what he weighs).

I like the idea of cleaning the supplement slate for a while and adding in what is shown to be necessary at this point. As mentioned before, my experience is with naturopaths, so I'm used to being handed a bag full of different supplements and that's worked for me in the past, but I'm switching more towards the one at a time, let's wait and see approach more. I like the idea of simplifying, especially because Bobby is young (~1.75 yy).

Again, thanks so much to both of you for your input!

 

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

"Cleaning the supplement slate" -- that's a fantastic description, and a really great concept and action as well!

Scar tissue continues to contract for many months, and will help stabilize the joint. I was born with two lax, wonky ankles that I managed to break twice - each - and now they are flexible but sturdy as can be, thanks to scar tissue! It's nice that at least *something* improves with age, lol!

GLM powder is very good and also proven beneficial in dogs, it has the glycosaminoglycans that keep joint fluid healthy and optimally lubricating. It's a good one to keep if it's made well. It has a miniscule amount of Omegas so I would use an EPA/DHA oil as well. If I could start every dog on joint supplements by ages 1-2, I would, so Bobby is right on time!!

Glad Bobby's only 65#, I was picturing something like a 400# Siberian tiger! Could you post a photo of him? I always love to see who we're talking about! ?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks for for your excellent posts and for bringing up this super important point Dr. Jean!

MSM, It is a source of elemental sulfur,

This is exactly why I to minimize its use! Sulphur is the most commonly needed homeopathic medicine and the elemental form repeated every day (especially at the higher doses in some supplements) *can be* problematic IMHO.

I think it's both super effective at the pharmacologic level in addition to potentially acting homeopathically at the energetic level (in pets who are susceptible to Sul).

 

[DanielleDL]

Great info from both of you, thanks! I love hearing both perspectives. My gut feeling (right or wrong) is that Bobby should maybe stay on the MSM for the duration of his most crucial post-surgery tissue regeneration (However long that is? Thoughts?), but then taken off an only be used for acute injuries or weakness (or maybe just cross that bridge if we get to it)? Again, the surgery was in October 2021 and he started on Dasuquin w/MSM in November. So he's been on it almost 6 months now. He just finished physical therapy on April 22nd, but we will be continuing one exercise (backwards walking) for life to keep his hamstrings toned (point being that he isn't getting a lot of focused conditioning that might cause microtears that would benefit from the MSM supplementation).

As for the GLM powder, it feels more like a food than a supplement (has anyone tried actual fresh GLMs?), and if it is more of a food, I'm more inclined to stick with that long-term, as long as it does no harm of course (hasn't shown to be a problem so far).

@Dr. Jean - My profile pic is Bobby (I call that his "headshot for his modeling career"), but here's one full body one and a napping one, cuz he's soooo cute when he sleeps. He likes his back feet right by his face sometimes.) I call him my little Sun bear cuz of his coloring (and his comically long tongue):

 

[Dr. Jeff]

I agree that keeping him on the MSM for 2-3 months post-surgery makes sense.

Regarding his CT healing, you might also want to look at this:

TRF (tissue regeneration factors) 150- 30 caps - HomeVet

Wow! A supplement that can actually help the body regrow normal bone and cartilage (and even other connective tissues). Thousands of research studies. Use of this product in my own arthritic dog has markedly improved his quality of life.

www.homevet.com

 

[DanielleDL]

@Dr. Jeff - Thanks so much for that recommendation! Not just for Bobby but for my mother, who has worsening osteoporosis. I'll actually be discussing the results of her most recent scan with her doctor on Monday, and I just know she's going to recommend fosamax (which I'm hesitant to get her back on because of her dementia, as well as fosamax's femur fracture risk). I think TRF may be a viable alternative. I can't get access to the full case studies, even through work, so if you have anything I can present to my mom's very allopathic doc to help persuade her, please send it to me!

 

[DanielleDL]

@Dr. Jeff - So after some research about TRF (Cyplexinol), I'm not so sure how I feel about it yet. The only case study data I can find on Cyplexinol specifically has been written by two of the board members (James Scaffidi and Daniel Tripodi) of ZyCal who make Cyplexinol. That's a little too close to home for me. I'm still searching for third-party data. Your website does advertise that there are "thousands of research studies," which is great! I must just not be looking in the right place. Could you point me to them?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Great questions Danielle.

I've reached out to Designs for Health about clinical research using this product in particular. The research mentioned is both unpublished linical research as well as into the components of TRF (but not the product itself).

I think that @GinnyW uses the product but am not sure what her results have been.

BTW-A dearth of published research is still common for many of these products.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

BTW-Below are a few references for another interesting bone supplement from DFH called OsteoForce Supreme which contains milk basic protein:

1. Milk basic protein increases bone mineral density and improves bone metabolism in healthy young women. Uenishi K, Ishida H, Toba Y, Aoe S, Itabashi A, Takada Y.
Osteoporos Int. 2007 Mar;18(3):385-90. Epub 2006 Oct 18.
2. Low serum calcidiol concentration in older adults with reduced muscular function. Mowé M, Haug E, Bøhmer T. J Am Geriatr Soc. 1999 Feb;47(2):220-6.
3. Role of vitamin K2 in the treatment of postmenopausal osteoporosis. Iwamoto J, Takeda T, Sato Y. Curr Drug Saf. 2006 Jan;1(1):87-97.
4. Undercarboxylated osteocalcin measured with a specific immunoassay predicts hip fracture in elderly women: the EPIDOS Study. Vergnaud P, Garnero P, Meunier PJ, Breart G,
Kamihagi K, Delmas PD. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 82: 719-724, 1997.
5. A controlled trial of the effect of milk basic protein (MBP) supplementation on bone metabolism in healthy menopausal women. Aoe S, Koyama T, Toba Y, Itabashi A, Takada Y.
Osteoporos Int. 2005 Dec;16(12):2123-8. Epub 2005 Aug 31.
6. Milk basic protein promotes bone formation and suppresses bone resorption in healthy adult men. Toba Y, Takada Y, Matsuoka Y, Morita Y, Motouri M, Hirai T, Suguri T, Aoe S,
Kawakami H, Kumegawa M, Takeuchi A, Itabashi A. Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2001 Jun;65(6):1353-7.
7. Milk basic protein (MBP) increases radial bone mineral density in healthy adult women. Yamamura J, Aoe S, Toba Y, Motouri M, Kawakami H, Kumegawa M, Itabashi A, Takada
Y. Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2002 Mar;66(3):702-4.
8. Controlled trial of the effects of milk basic protein (MBP) supplementation on bone metabolism in healthy adult women. Aoe S, Toba Y, Yamamura J, Kawakami H, Yahiro M,
Kumegawa M, Itabashi A, Takada Y. Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2001 Apr;65(4):913-8.
9. Assessment of the potential allergenicity of a Milk Basic Protein fraction. Goodman RE, Taylor SL, Yamamura J, Kobayashi T, Kawakami H, Kruger CL, Thompson GP. Food
Chem Toxicol. 2007 Oct;45(10):1787-94. Epub 2007 Mar 28.

Below is the DFH info. about TRF for docs.

BTW-I found at least one current clinical trial of TRF at the Univ. of Memphis.

 

[GinnyW]

Hey,, I USED to use TRF, but have since forgotten all about it. I think my first love Tomo was on it. All this makes me want to rush out and get some; it's a fantastic product, IMOl.

As you know, poor Tomo had everything in the book with which to deal: systemic organic failures, DM, deafness, incontinence, and two TPLOs and a hip reinforcement. But whatever we did for him, it kept him happy til the day he left the earth.

I will put TRF in my consciousness once again; thank you!