Dental surgery/fractures and extractions

[JulyS]

My almost 16 year old neutered male kitty needs a dental and I'm trying not to be worries. He has stage 2 kidney disease and maybe something weird with his heart (not a murmur, but something extra). He has extra teeth so despite being on a raw diet and occasionally getting chicken necks and bigger hunks of beef to chew he is prone to tarter build up and has bad gingivitis. He also has two fractures and possibly needs up to six extractions.

My questions are:
1.In the holistic field, what is to be done with teeth that are already in a bad place? I was giving him deer velvet, but stopped because the energy of forcing this on his gums twice a day an hour between food (he snacks on his food through the day) was making him run from me as I entered the room.
2. How necessary are procedures like this and how conservative should I be when speaking to the vet beforehand, as far as extractions go?
3. If necessary are there any recommendations for preparing him for best possible outcomes?
4. The vet wants antibiotics for three days prior and seven days after. @Dr. Jeff, am I remembering correctly that you said three days after is plenty and nothing prior?
5. Lastly, and most importantly, concerning his age and current kidney issues, do the risks outweigh the benefits?

Any info I should know that I didn't think to ask about will also be absorbed.

Thank you so much

@Dr. Christina @Dr. Jean @Dr. Sara @Dr. Sue

 

[Dr. Jeff]

1.In the holistic field, what is to be done with teeth that are already in a bad place?

It depends. Sometimes extraction is still the best option.

2. How necessary are procedures like this and how conservative should I be when speaking to the vet beforehand, as far as extractions go?

Not conservative. IMHO, it's better to pull suspect teeth so your kitty will feel better right away.

If the vet exam/dental exam shows that a tooth needs to be extracted she should do it. Especially if dental x-rays show bone loss, root absorption, etc.

3. If necessary are there any recommendations for preparing him for best possible outcomes?

Arnica dose the night before the procedure and as often as needed (based on restless, apparent discomfort, etc.) afterwards.

4. The vet wants antibiotics for three days prior and seven days after. @Dr. Jeff, am I remembering correctly that you said three days after is plenty and nothing prior?

That is my *general* advice if you're going to use any antibiotics. However, the recommendation needs to be based on exam findings +/- dental x-rays.

5. Lastly, and most importantly, concerning his age and current kidney issues, do the risks outweigh the benefits?

It depends on factors like degree of dental and kidney dis-eases, anesthetic monitoring, degree of your kitty's discomfort, etc. Usually the quality of life benefit outweighs the risk.

 

[JulyS]

@Dr. Jeff, thank you for the above. (I thought I responded, oops). He had the deep cleaning and three extractions on Monday. He did well and I had him on antibiotics day of and for three days after. He seemed sore, but good. Yesterday his BEAM shifted and he started being more lethargic then he had been and not wanting to eat as much. Today he was very lethargic and barely ate a thing (though I managed to encourage 1.5 ounces or watered down food this evening). I called the vet and they said they weren't too worried, but to keep an eye on him. He won't let me open his mouth easily to see how things look, but one extraction was a K9 so I can see it when lifting his cheek. His gum is purple grey surrounded by some red (I'll try to post a photo if I can figure out how to get on here on my phone). I took his temperature, but 96.1 seems too low so guessing it didn't take (got the same reading twice). Is there anything in particular I need to be focusing on to see if I need to get him to the emergency vet?

It's worth noting they sent him home (and charged me with discussing it) with buprenorphine. Two of his extractions were complete root extractions so they told me he would be in immense pain. I didn't want to give it, but then I did for a couple days, but stopped for a day. I gave him some thing morning again thinking maybe he was lethargic because the pain was worse. It didn't seem to help. I am trying to give him arnica that has been dissolved in water, but touching his gums is always tricky and now even harder because I don't want to hurt him. Any guidance on helping manage his pain?

Thank you so much for your continued support.

Also, @Dr. Jean, I have been using the vaccine detox JG flower essence on him thinking it would help with the toxins from the bup and things he got in surgery. Obviously it won't hurt, but do you think it would help in that way? Thank you

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hi July-

I'm glad that your kitty had a successful dental!

Any guidance on helping manage his pain?

Will he lick some cream (or anything) off a saucer? If so, add a few drops of Arnica (the highest potency you have) to a tiny bit of cream/goats milk, etc.

See how he seems after succussing 10x and dosing hourly for up to 3 times.

Do you have homeopathic Hypericum in the house (if not, today might be the day to get some).

 

[JulyS]

Here are some photos of his gum and the dental record

 

[JulyS]

@Dr. Jeff Looks like I posted the pictures at the same time you replied. I'm currently at urgent care because his vet recommended it based on the look of his gum. He did eat more this morning and while still lethargic is better than yesterday. Of course sitting in this room he isn't acting sick at all. He has sneezed a few times though so maybe he isn't having a reaction to the surgery, but just has a cold. What are your thoughts on the gum discoloration?

Will he lick some cream (or anything) off a saucer? If so, add a few drops of Arnica (the highest potency you have) to a tiny bit of cream/goats milk, etc.

Yes, probably. That's a great idea. As for arnica all I have is a topical gel and homeopathic pills. Can I use the pills in this way or do you recommend another form/product?

See how he seems after succussing 10x and dosing hourly for up to 3 times.

Do you have homeopathic Hypericum in the house (if not, today might be the day to get some).

I don't have that, but can easily get some. Is it for pain? I am not familiar with it.

Thanks so much,

July

 

[Dr. Jeff]

What are your thoughts on the gum discoloration?

Thanks for asking July! My first thought when looking at the pics is that this kind of blue-black gum color is actually genetically normal in some orange cats. Had you looked at this area of his gums prior to the dental? Are any of his other gums this color?

Can I use the pills in this way

Yes! 1 pellet added to 1 cup of bottled/filtered water will medicate the whole cup (which you'll be using for any of the doses you give over the next few days.

Is it for pain?

Yes. Especially post-dental and when it is severe. And like every homeopathic remedy, it addresses the underlying energetic imbalance which causes the pain (and other dis-eases).

 

[JulyS]

Thanks for asking July! My first thought when looking at the pics is that this kind of blue-black gum color is actually genetically normal in some orange cats. Had you looked at this area of his gums prior to the dental? Are any of his other gums this color?

I hadn't specifically noticed this section before, but also wondered this and asked at urgent care. He has a lot of black spots in his mouth, but not on his gums and this coloration is unique to this spot (which is right at the extraction site). She thought it looked like bruising but because it was so bad she suggested another seven days of antibiotics. Ugh. I don't want to do it and also am not opposed to it if it's necessary. How can I tell when it's necessary? He ate this morning and was less lethargic than yesterday, but after the journey too and from and three hours at urgent care he is understandably exhausted and back to lethargy.

I haven't been able to get arnica in him as he hasn't been up for eating and the goat milk is still defrosting. I can pick up cream when I grab the Hypericum.

Thank you

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Arnica is famous for helping the body resolve bruising...

 

[GinnyW]

In my non-professional opinion, Arnica will do everything he needs - no more ABX necessary. Give a dose soonest, and a couple more times today/now. Then, observe his comfort level and dose once or twice a day for a day or two, as his BEAM dictates. Wonderful stuff, and won't hurt if slightly overdosed. Now, about that dose: Mix the solution, and put some on a Q-tip. Sneak up on him and brush it inside his mouth on the gum, anywhere. Or, failing that, get some in/on his ear flap. Or even between his toes, on his belly - anywhere he has nice soft skin. Succuss/stir the solution every time you dose.

 

[JulyS]

In my non-professional opinion, Arnica will do everything he needs - no more ABX necessary. Give a dose soonest, and a couple more times today/now. Then, observe his comfort level and dose once or twice a day for a day or two, as his BEAM dictates. Wonderful stuff, and won't hurt if slightly overdosed. Now, about that dose: Mix the solution, and put some on a Q-tip. Sneak up on him and brush it inside his mouth on the gum, anywhere. Or, failing that, get some in/on his ear flap. Or even between his toes, on his belly - anywhere he has nice soft skin. Succuss/stir the solution every time you dose.

This was incredibly helpful. I read it on email and completely forgot to get on here and thank you. Belated thank you!

 

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

Hi July and all, sorry I haven't been on the forum... had a bad reaction to new meds prescribed by the cardiologist, and it's taken a few weeks to try various things (none of which worked, except stopping that med!), now I'm finally getting back to normal.

Anyway... yes, the vaccine detox will help with all detox situations, so that was a brilliant choice! Hope your kitty is on the mend!

 

[JulyS]

It's been a month and a half since Benji's dental surgery. He started twitching at his mouth right after, which I assumed was from the discomfort. He stopped a couple days in, then resumed about a week and a half later. This I assumed was from the stitches starting to dissolve. Unfortunately, however he is still doing it. Some google searches led me to wondering if it's possibly feline odontoclastic resorptive lesions? I have looked in his mouth (when he lets me) and don't see much amiss, but he does have some reddening near the gum line in areas. He does tend to eat from one side (but he did this before the surgery and now is missing teeth so not sure if that corresponds) and he drops food in a way he didn't use to.

Any thoughts on this, @Dr. Jeff, @Dr. Christina, @Dr. Jean, @Dr. Sara?

Thanks

 

[Dr. Jeff]

I'm sorry to hear about Benji's continued mouth twitch. If you have a video of his doing it, perhaps add that to this thread.

Great question July!

Any suspicious teeth would have been removed during the dentistry, so it's very unlikely to be FORL or any tooth issue at all.

Is his gum redness new?

How's his appetite and overall BEAM?

 

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

I agree with Dr. Jeff, but not every vet is skilled at dentistry. For example, does your vet use a dental x-ray machine? Retained roots after extraction are very common, and impossible to see without x-rays. Can you get a copy of the surgical record? If so, please post here!

At the risk of causing mental anguish to the real homeopaths here, I always gave a combo of Arnica, Ruta Graveolens, and Hypericum to my post-dental kitties. (I used 1M but 30C would be fine too.) It really seemed to help.

 

[JulyS]

@Dr. Jeff, a video is a great idea. I will work on that and post. I must confess I don't know if the redness is new. I started looking after his surgery, as before I was mostly looking at his teeth. My guess is it's not new, but I would've thought it'd go away after all the work he had done.

His appetite is not great, but it corresponds with a new batch of food I made that he may not like (it always varies a bit). His BEAM has been off for a bit. I am slowly making progress with the dog to stop intermittently charging the cats, but it still happens. It definitely takes it's toll on them.

@Dr. Jean they told me they did x-rays which reveled less damage then they thought (did 3 instead of 6 extractions), but the only thing they gave me for dental records is the hand written one I posted above (May 28). I will see if I can get a copy of the x-rays or something more technical.

I did give him arnica and hypericum, but not together. At this point he doesn't seem in pain, but maybe it's just less pain than when he first had the surgery. On Dr. Christina's suggestion I just gave him hypericum last week 2/day for 2.5 days. I thought it helped the first day, but then he was back to twitching the second day so I may just not have seen him on the first day. I also gave him your vaccine detox for three or four days pre and post surgery. I haven't given him Ruta Graveolens. I'm not familiar with it, but can pick it up if you think it'd help this far post surgery.

Thank you. I will post surgical records and twitching video when I get them.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

My guess is it's not new, but I would've thought it'd go away after all the work he had done.

I agree that the gum redness ("gingivitis") has probably been there for awhile. It often will not respond to a dental as the underlying imbalance still exists. However, it can change slowly over weeks and months IF the dentail issues were the source of the redness.

His appetite is not great, but it corresponds with a new batch of food I made that he may not like (it always varies a bit). His BEAM has been off for a bit.

Ah, the exact nature of the symptom clues may help guide you to the next steps (homeopathy, TCVM, Ayurveda, Bengston Method, and other ways to raise and balance your kitty's vitality/energy).

For example, there's a woman working with kitties using the Bengston method whose name I could find if you are interested.

I am slowly making progress with the dog to stop intermittently charging the cats, but it still happens. It definitely takes it's toll on them.

Yes, it's best to reduce as much stress as possible. But it's super difficult to stop your dog's chasing the cats. Archie loves Aviva and Tiggy (my cats) but also loves running after them if they are moving quickly.

July, this is a great time to focus on helping your kitty do whatever he loves most and makes him happiest. That will raise his body's energy and ability to heal and help his BEAM and appetite (and eventually the gum redness).

 

[Dr. Jean Hofve]

Okay, well since it's been a while, and they did take x-rays (so many vets do not!), they would have seen the things I would worry about. Ruta is specific to dental extractions but may not be helpful now. Just keep on building him up as Dr. Jeff and Dr. Christina have suggested.

With the dog... training may involve a leash or longe line, something you can step on quickly if he starts after them; and positive reinforcement (treats) for reliable "sit" or "down," and especially for staying in a sit-stay as they move through his field of vision. Plenty of high up safe spaces for the cats is also important. Try "Safe Space" by Jackson Galaxy Solutions for Benji. I have seen it work absolute miracles! Of course, make sure the kitties have plenty of escape routes... cat trees, high shelves (one cat used the top of the refrigerator... until she was given Safe Space. She came down to earth and was secure in her skin the rest of her life! (We also gave her tormenter, another cat who was very aggressive, "Bully Solution." Your dog is not a bully, but the effect on the cats is likely to be perceived that way!)

Another thing that might increase Benji's interest in life and increase his BEAM... I got my cat a snuffle mat, I hide treats in it, and he loves it! When I bring out the treat jar, he goes right there and waits! Made for mini pigs but totally appropriate for kitties (and small doggies!): PIGGY POO AND CREW Purple Snuffle Mat - Chewy.com