Vomiting bile

[LilF]

Blossom's BEAM has changed some and she has vomited bile in the mornings twice in about 10 days--time to start recording in food journal like I did with the old deceased dogs 2 years ago.

But Blossom is much younger. I HAD been giving her Dasuquin daily since early May----but stopped that when she vomited bile about 10 days ago. I have given her collagen powder for about 3 weeks---daily dose is 2 scoops but I do one scoop in the morning and one in the evening meal. I am noting changes here.

She has been eating cooked grass fed ground beef with organs ground in for her evening meal...it is quite greasy even though I drain it --maybe I should rinse it too... I also gave her beef heart the other day and had been giving her chicken hearts--3 a day with one meal.

Are organs too fatty?

She seems tired walking after eating the raw beef heart. I give her a cup or so of raw Steve's with each meal---she is 60 lbs--and then add the organs or cooked ground beef. I have not been adding calcium very much because she gets the Steve's but maybe I should add some because I don't know if I am covering phosphorus.

They have tried to get blood from her in April and May but they could not and suggested sedation. I take her the 16th to the vet that got blood from her back in 2023 many times but SHE seems to have changed. I do not know if he will be able to since the prior 2 vets could not and one of those was a hospital. I do not think sedation is safe if there is something with her liver--IS IT---the bile concerns me..

Her vet care has been ignored--no nail trims since last October, overdue on heartworm and no blood panels since her spay surgery in October all because she is too feisty now and she even wears a muzzle. I have no idea why the change. I am giving her silymarin and have given her milk thistle off an on for many months. I have a bottle of Liver Detox from Adored Beast---should I give her THAT?

It says to give till the bottle is empty. In the past with liver enzymes I have used Denamarin with success----Should I give THAT for bile?

This feels like Gabby Part 2 if you remember my shar pei with PLE and then hemangio...She vomited bile increasingly when she was sick but vomited occasionally her whole life. Finally, I guess even without the blood work,I should talk to the homeopath but scheduling is weeks out.

Right now she is on calcarea for the past few months and she did start healing her ligament during that time. He said to give it another 3 months. Now I think I should give her Nux for the bile but should I wait for my appointment with the homeopath or just go for it to see if it helps--maybe give it before bed?

She vomits a couple hours after waking up. Is there anythng here to say keep doing it or stop doing it or anything to start or add to her food/supplements?

I am concerned. She is not walking far---hard to know if it is heat related or health related with this stinking weather humidity.
Should I sedate her for blood if I have to?

I was avoiding the vet who was able to get blood from her because he committed a crime and I lost respect for him as a person.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Are organs too fatty?

Great question Lil! If fed raw, the higher fat in some organs is fine.

Liver Detox from Adored Beast---should I give her THAT?

Sure, since you've already got it. Looks like good ingredients.

Though as you know Lil, there is no amount of supplements that will address her underlying energetic dis-ease.

Should I give THAT for bile?

Perhaps try it for awhile after the AB product. Then see how she does.

should I wait for my appointment with the homeopath

Yes.

Is there anythng here to say keep doing it or stop doing it or anything to start or add to her food/supplements?

No there is not. Does she get a treat right before bed?

Should I sedate her for blood if I have to?

Yes. Hope the new vet won't have to sedate her. Are they Fear Free certified?

Veterinary Professionals

Learn more about the program, check out the benefits of becoming Fear Free Certified, and see what others are saying about Fear Free.

fearfreepets.com

Is there any food or toy that she loves, loves, loves? I remember Brady who had a super painful broken nail and we couldn't get near it. Until he had a ball in his mouth then let us do anything!

 

[NancyK]

I would like to share my experience with bile vomiting in case this might help you. Several years ago my yorkie started vomiting bile frequently. He also had a mildly elevated ALT. I always look to diet first. I suspected that I might be feeding too much copper. Beef liver is extremely high in copper. I was feeding small amounts daily, however I also fed beef heart and beef quite often, both of which have good amounts of copper. I decided to cut back on the beef liver and heart. I now feed beef liver at only 2-3 percent and heart at max of 5 percent. Within a few months, my yorkie was back to normal and pretty much never bile vomits. Many commercial pet foods including Steve's Raw food is very high in copper. Some dogs are not able to handle this which can lead to copper storage disease. Many nutritionists recommend rotating beef with other animal livers or cutting back to 2-3 percent. One of the reasons I make my own dog food is so I can control the copper content. Unfortunately, some of the better raw food brands use excessive amounts of organ meats which to me is unnatural. Organs are super foods and more is definitely not better. Here is chart showing the wide range of copper contents in some foods. Rotating proteins can help.

Nancy

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks for sharing your experience and this great list Nancy!

 

[LilF]

Great question Lil! If fed raw, the higher fat in some organs is fine.


Sure, since you've already got it. Looks like good ingredients.

Though as you know Lil, there is no amount of supplements that will address her underlying energetic dis-ease.


Perhaps try it for awhile after the AB product. Then see how she does.

Yes.


No there is not. Does she get a treat right before bed?


Yes. Hope the new vet won't have to sedate her. Are they Fear Free certified?

Veterinary Professionals

Learn more about the program, check out the benefits of becoming Fear Free Certified, and see what others are saying about Fear Free.

fearfreepets.com

Is there any food or toy that she loves, loves, loves? I remember Brady who had a super painful broken nail and we couldn't get near it. Until he had a ball in his mouth then let us do anything!

Thanks for this good information. She does not get a treat before bed but obviously it helps if a lot of people do it. I could never understand how it would help though if we sleep for 9 hours her stomach would be empty way before we get up. She does eat dinner late at about 7pm. Coincidentally it is this time period that I ran out of the digestive enzymes and was not giving them to her. maybe she does need an actual product.

She DOES have a favorite toy---literally 20 of them---she thinks they are her babies. I did have the idea to let her have one at the vets but then I wondered if she would try and protect the baby from the vet who was trying to cut her nails or take blood. i did not know if she would be defensive. Actually that is how i got her used to the car in part---someone at the vets office gave her a plush toy and so i only let her have it in the car...well now she loves the car so the "baby" is allowed in the house. This seems to be her favorite--but of all the toys that I bought her made in the USA she likes that one made in China with unknown disclosures. I took her to a vet today---we have about 3 we rotate, Blossom must have remembered the last time they took her in the back to get blood...they were unable. I think she was traumatized then and caused the problem. Well today the same vet tech took her to the back so the vet could watch her walk and Blossom sat down and dragged while on her butt to the back. She must have remembered last time. i only allowed it because they were only going to watch her walk on the leash. but it hurt me to see this. i do not like this vet because they take dogs to the back. i only took her there for his opinion on surgery for her torn ligament--- Doubt they are fear free certified. The hospital I took her to back in June IS certified but they still could not get blood from her.... I digress
looks like she has a number of symptoms now for the homeopath to consider.

 

[LilF]

I would like to share my experience with bile vomiting in case this might help you. Several years ago my yorkie started vomiting bile frequently. He also had a mildly elevated ALT. I always look to diet first. I suspected that I might be feeding too much copper. Beef liver is extremely high in copper. I was feeding small amounts daily, however I also fed beef heart and beef quite often, both of which have good amounts of copper. I decided to cut back on the beef liver and heart. I now feed beef liver at only 2-3 percent and heart at max of 5 percent. Within a few months, my yorkie was back to normal and pretty much never bile vomits. Many commercial pet foods including Steve's Raw food is very high in copper. Some dogs are not able to handle this which can lead to copper storage disease. Many nutritionists recommend rotating beef with other animal livers or cutting back to 2-3 percent. One of the reasons I make my own dog food is so I can control the copper content. Unfortunately, some of the better raw food brands use excessive amounts of organ meats which to me is unnatural. Organs are super foods and more is definitely not better. Here is chart showing the wide range of copper contents in some foods. Rotating proteins can help.

Nancy

Nancy, super interesting---I have heard of copper storage disease for people. I know when eat too much copper in food, I feel depressed. I was feeding more beef, I used to feed bison and turkey, because I thought beef had more taurine.All my other dogs I had rotated proteins like you say. The guy at the food store told me Steve's turkey and all raw turkey products are HPP so I started to feed only beef both meals. yep, that does fit the timeline of onset of bilious vomiting. I am not saavy enough about making my own dog food---bad with math and numbers, weights and measures. i was feeding her a poultry meal in the morning and the red meat for dinner for a long time, then switched when the guy told me the turkey is HPP but the beef is not. I don't know how you found out the copper amounts in each food as I don't think they are on the labels. Now I have this huge beef heart in my fridge. The problem is if these are superfoods, I waste a lot giving her only a small amount. I have not fed her the heart in a few days now suspecting it might be too rich in some way. I suppose if we add treats to the snuffle mat in addition---they should not be beef. i will go back to feeding her bison if it does not have too much copper. I will keep this in mind---thank you so much, and back off on those foods and also see how her energy is-- Since I add fresh foods I always worry about balance and give her catalyn now and then---oh come to think, maybe that has copper too----Thank you for this food for thought.

 

[NancyK]

Nancy, super interesting---I have heard of copper storage disease for people. I know when eat too much copper in food, I feel depressed. I was feeding more beef, I used to feed bison and turkey, because I thought beef had more taurine.All my other dogs I had rotated proteins like you say. The guy at the food store told me Steve's turkey and all raw turkey products are HPP so I started to feed only beef both meals. yep, that does fit the timeline of onset of bilious vomiting. I am not saavy enough about making my own dog food---bad with math and numbers, weights and measures. i was feeding her a poultry meal in the morning and the red meat for dinner for a long time, then switched when the guy told me the turkey is HPP but the beef is not. I don't know how you found out the copper amounts in each food as I don't think they are on the labels. Now I have this huge beef heart in my fridge. The problem is if these are superfoods, I waste a lot giving her only a small amount. I have not fed her the heart in a few days now suspecting it might be too rich in some way. I suppose if we add treats to the snuffle mat in addition---they should not be beef. i will go back to feeding her bison if it does not have too much copper. I will keep this in mind---thank you so much, and back off on those foods and also see how her energy is-- Since I add fresh foods I always worry about balance and give her catalyn now and then---oh come to think, maybe that has copper too----Thank you for this food for thought.

Excessive copper in dog food is actually a huge issue right now. AFFCO only has a minimum requirement for copper and no maximum. Therefore, the various brands and formulas are all over the place with regard to the amount of copper in them. To see the copper content, you need to look at the full nutritional analysis which is sometimes available on the food company's website. Otherwise, you can request it. The list I posted was actually sent to me by the owner of GreenJuJu when I inquired about copper content in his foods. GreenJuJu prides itself on meeting all AAFCO requirements by using only whole foods. This is great, however he does it by including large amounts of organ meats and no muscle meat at all. This sounds concerning to me.

There are good brands like VivaRaw and AllProvide you might consider rotating with. I don't believe they use HPP.

The problem is not so much beef muscle but the overdoing of ruminant organ meats, especially liver. I believe they do this because organs are discards from the human industry. They are definitely super nutritious but listening to mother nature is always best. For example, a liver is maybe 2 percent of an animal so not meant to be consumed in huge amounts. Heart meat is not quite as concerning but is not meant to be overdone IMO. This actually applies to all ruminant animals, not just beef. They are all high in copper.

One thing to point out is that ruminant animals are higher in both zinc and copper. Zinc works in synergy with copper and provides somewhat of a protective effect by limiting copper absorption. However, overdoing the organs can still cause an issue.

As far as adding additional taurine to the diet, poultry hearts are much higher in taurine than beef heart. This is because poultry hearts beat alot faster which makes the heart work harder. Thr harder a muscle works, the more taurine it had. Gizzards are also s great source of taurine. So you may consider adding poultry hearts and gizzards for extra taurine vs so much beef heart.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your guy.

Nancy

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks so much for your great post Nancy. I really appreciate your generosity in sharing!

 

[LilF]

Excessive copper in dog food is actually a huge issue right now. AFFCO only has a minimum requirement for copper and no maximum. Therefore, the various brands and formulas are all over the place with regard to the amount of copper in them. To see the copper content, you need to look at the full nutritional analysis which is sometimes available on the food company's website. Otherwise, you can request it. The list I posted was actually sent to me by the owner of GreenJuJu when I inquired about copper content in his foods. GreenJuJu prides itself on meeting all AAFCO requirements by using only whole foods. This is great, however he does it by including large amounts of organ meats and no muscle meat at all. This sounds concerning to me.

There are good brands like VivaRaw and AllProvide you might consider rotating with. I don't believe they use HPP.

The problem is not so much beef muscle but the overdoing of ruminant organ meats, especially liver. I believe they do this because organs are discards from the human industry. They are definitely super nutritious but listening to mother nature is always best. For example, a liver is maybe 2 percent of an animal so not meant to be consumed in huge amounts. Heart meat is not quite as concerning but is not meant to be overdone IMO. This actually applies to all ruminant animals, not just beef. They are all high in copper.

One thing to point out is that ruminant animals are higher in both zinc and copper. Zinc works in synergy with copper and provides somewhat of a protective effect by limiting copper absorption. However, overdoing the organs can still cause an issue.

As far as adding additional taurine to the diet, poultry hearts are much higher in taurine than beef heart. This is because poultry hearts beat alot faster which makes the heart work harder. Thr harder a muscle works, the more taurine it had. Gizzards are also s great source of taurine. So you may consider adding poultry hearts and gizzards for extra taurine vs so much beef heart.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your guy.

Nancy

Nancy---"hope this helps" you betcha it does. Wow, I am going to implement these action steps with regard to her diet. So usually I purchase an entire beef or bison kidney. Once it defrosts I seem to want to use it up over a week or 10 days time and add it to one meal. Maybe I should cut and refreeze half of the organ.
You mention you feed pancreas---I have never fed that. If I do not feed organs each meal then maybe she WOULD need digestive enzymes. I suppose cooking them up some changes the nutritional value--making it a dead food---or not? But copper would remain the same cooked or raw. I used to rotate proteins with my dogs in the past with venison, rabbit etc....so I will do that again. Thank you for taking the time......Blossom thanks you too. I wish I knew all you know about diet. Today she was good and no vomit. I gave her ground turkey and sardines and an egg for breakfast---just till I figure out what commercial base to feed her to balance things out.

 

[NancyK]

Nancy---"hope this helps" you betcha it does. Wow, I am going to implement these action steps with regard to her diet. So usually I purchase an entire beef or bison kidney. Once it defrosts I seem to want to use it up over a week or 10 days time and add it to one meal. Maybe I should cut and refreeze half of the organ.
You mention you feed pancreas---I have never fed that. If I do not feed organs each meal then maybe she WOULD need digestive enzymes. I suppose cooking them up some changes the nutritional value--making it a dead food---or not? But copper would remain the same cooked or raw. I used to rotate proteins with my dogs in the past with venison, rabbit etc....so I will do that again. Thank you for taking the time......Blossom thanks you too. I wish I knew all you know about diet. Today she was good and no vomit. I gave her ground turkey and sardines and an egg for breakfast---just till I figure out what commercial base to feed her to balance things out.

There are different ways to feed organs. For my dogs, a little each day works better than larger amounts less often. Every dog is different and we need to find what works best for our dogs. I can tell you what I do which may or may not work for your dog. Note that I do not feed commercial food so my dogs only get the organs I provide.

Every day, I feed 3 different secreting organs making up about 8 percent of their diet. The first one is liver. The second one is usually kidney but sometimes spleen. The third one I switch up between pancreas, testes, sweetbreads, and brain. Each day I also feed 5 percent heart from various animals and another 5 percent is either gizzards, lung or tongue. These are the muscular organs. Occasionally we will have a day with no organs.

To make meal prep easy for organs, I have a different glass freezer container for each organ. For example, I thaw a package of kidney just long enough so I can cut a section off. Then I put the remainder back into the freezer. I cut the section into small pieces and lay the pieces in the freezer container. I do the same with the other organs. I now have several containers each with a different organ. When I prepare their meal for the day, I select which organs to use and take the containers out that contain those organs. Within minutes, I am able to pry the organs I want out of their container. I immediately put the containers back in the freezer. My dogs are only about 11 pounds so it would take forever to go through an organ. This way the organs stay fresh. When a container is empty, I repeat the process.

As far as pancreas, the organ itself is a great source of digestive enzymes.

I also use a similar process for their raw meaty bones and muscle meat. After 14 years of feeding homemade, I found this process to be the simplest for me.

Nancy

 

[LilF]

There are different ways to feed organs. For my dogs, a little each day works better than larger amounts less often. Every dog is different and we need to find what works best for our dogs. I can tell you what I do which may or may not work for your dog. Note that I do not feed commercial food so my dogs only get the organs I provide.

Every day, I feed 3 different secreting organs making up about 8 percent of their diet. The first one is liver. The second one is usually kidney but sometimes spleen. The third one I switch up between pancreas, testes, sweetbreads, and brain. Each day I also feed 5 percent heart from various animals and another 5 percent is either gizzards, lung or tongue. These are the muscular organs. Occasionally we will have a day with no organs.

To make meal prep easy for organs, I have a different glass freezer container for each organ. For example, I thaw a package of kidney just long enough so I can cut a section off. Then I put the remainder back into the freezer. I cut the section into small pieces and lay the pieces in the freezer container. I do the same with the other organs. I now have several containers each with a different organ. When I prepare their meal for the day, I select which organs to use and take the containers out that contain those organs. Within minutes, I am able to pry the organs I want out of their container. I immediately put the containers back in the freezer. My dogs are only about 11 pounds so it would take forever to go through an organ. This way the organs stay fresh. When a container is empty, I repeat the process.

As far as pancreas, the organ itself is a great source of digestive enzymes.

I also use a similar process for their raw meaty bones and muscle meat. After 14 years of feeding homemade, I found this process to be the simplest for me.

Nancy

Nancy, you are rife with specific and easy to implement information on feeding organs. I have seen sweetbread online and never knew it was in that category--same with brains---brains? Sometimes I have trouble cutting up raw organs as it is creepy and slimy. i have cooked up chicken livers/hearts before but they probably don't have the same nutritional advantage as raw. is the VIVA dog food online? My pet store does not have it.... I thought they had a recall recently or was that Vital Essentials which gave my dog diarrhea? I am going to try and order the pancreas this weekend if my source has it. I have not fed 2 beef meals since posting and back to one turkey/chicken/sardine/egg meal and one beef or bison meal. She will get some heart today later but not a lot. I will throw out what is in the fridge and do what you do with the next organ I defrost. Thanks for all this good information and for taking the time to be specific so I can implement strategies with confidence.

 

[NancyK]

Nancy, you are rife with specific and easy to implement information on feeding organs. I have seen sweetbread online and never knew it was in that category--same with brains---brains? Sometimes I have trouble cutting up raw organs as it is creepy and slimy. i have cooked up chicken livers/hearts before but they probably don't have the same nutritional advantage as raw. is the VIVA dog food online? My pet store does not have it.... I thought they had a recall recently or was that Vital Essentials which gave my dog diarrhea? I am going to try and order the pancreas this weekend if my source has it. I have not fed 2 beef meals since posting and back to one turkey/chicken/sardine/egg meal and one beef or bison meal. She will get some heart today later but not a lot. I will throw out what is in the fridge and do what you do with the next organ I defrost. Thanks for all this good information and for taking the time to be specific so I can implement strategies with confidence.

LilF,

If you cut up the organs partially frozen, they will not be squishy. They don't have to be thawed in the frig for very long before you can cut them up. Once thawed completely they are more difficult to cut up, same with meat that is completely thawed.

The Pet Health and Nutrition Center sells freeze dried pancreas as well as many other organs. They even have an awesome organ blend. That way they get a little of everything. This is an option if you cannot get fresh.

I believe Viva Raw sells online. They did have a recent recall but they are a good company. Other good brands are AllProvide and Solutions Pet Products. It is good to rotate brands anyway, as well as formulas. If you are wanting to know the copper content, check the full nutritional analysis and see how it differs from the AAFCO minimum. I am a control freak so I make my own!

Most commercial raw foods have pretty much liver and heart already. I would be careful of giving too much extra, depending on what is already in the food. Be really careful of any brand that adds liver AND a copper supplement. That is a clue that they are adding the same supplement to ALL formulas out of convenience and not basing it on what is missing from the food.

Good luck!
Nancy

 

[LilF]

Great question Lil! If fed raw, the higher fat in some organs is fine.


Sure, since you've already got it. Looks like good ingredients.

Though as you know Lil, there is no amount of supplements that will address her underlying energetic dis-ease.


Perhaps try it for awhile after the AB product. Then see how she does.

Yes.


No there is not. Does she get a treat right before bed?


Yes. Hope the new vet won't have to sedate her. Are they Fear Free certified?

Veterinary Professionals

Learn more about the program, check out the benefits of becoming Fear Free Certified, and see what others are saying about Fear Free.

fearfreepets.com

Is there any food or toy that she loves, loves, loves? I remember Brady who had a super painful broken nail and we couldn't get near it. Until he had a ball in his mouth then let us do anything!

Blossom vomited bile again this morning so that makes about 3 times since early August. I had cut one of the beef meals out and feed her venison with only beef ground meat topping. This seems to correlate also with my running out of the digestive enzymes so I think I should order some of those from 4leaf Rover. I don't know if fish oil can cause this--it is really difficult to watch her wretch... Question: tomorrow she goes to the vet and having a full CBC and Chem if she allows it. Is there any other test to request--she will not be fasting since her appt is at 5 and not going to starve her all day long. I thought there was some other specific test to request from her prior history where we suspected pancreatitis but I don't suspect that with her bilious vomiting as she is ok otherwise. I did speak with the homeopath yesterday and we are still giving her carbonica calcarea ( going from memory on the name) once a month for 3 months. For her ligament he suggested Arnica, rhus tox and Ruta. I asked him about the combo versus one for all problems, and he said because it was an acute problem. I do know this helped JJ from a different homeopath who got it all wrong for his heart but it did seem to help JJ's ligament tear. I mentioned the bilious vomiting and if I should give nux--he said I could give that a few days a week, but again no one remedy for all issues. Well that is the update. Oh, I also started CBD oil and it did not seem to calm her much or change her after one dose. I thought maybe it could help with her vet visit tomorrow and will give it again. BTW, she vomited this morning BEFORE i started this CBD. The homeopath said it is good for the immune system when i told him a friend was sending me some.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

she will not be fasting since her appt is at 5 and not going to starve her all day long

An 8 hour fast is often sufficient.