Diet- low purine diet and low copper diet?

[PattyS]

I have a 10 year old Dalmatian that eats raw. Because Dalmatians can be stone formers, they should eat a low purine diet. And because Dalmatians can get copper storage, copper needs to be avoided. It is getting confusing as to what to feed. It is a relatively new topic on the Dalmatian pages- within the last several years. They are adamant that no organ meat be fed.
Also, chia seeds and freeze dried chicken hearts have great benefits, but are high in copper.
What are your thoughts?

 

[GinnyW]

I am not a dal expert, but of course I went looking. I found this site, which seems to have a comfortably non-panicked viewpoint, backed with some success:

Dalmatian Diet and Purine Problems - Dalmatian DIY

Introduction to Dalmatian purine issues. The challenges of diet planning for Dalmatian dogs, commercial or homemade, with helpful links and resources.

www.dalmatiandiy.com

I don't like "adamant" when dealing with diet; there are far too many variables. My inclination would be to use a varied raw diet, while keeping in mind - and in minimus - the most purine-forming foods. I would also research and use some concentrated supplements proven to fill in nutritional gaps without overloading the purine-metabolizing mechanism.

In short, it seems that with a ten-year-old dog, you are already doing what suits him. What has been going on that concerns you at present? I'd like to know more about this condition...

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Thanks for the post Patty and for the site recommendation Ginny!

I bet @Dr. Jean Hofve will have something to say about copper in the diet!

Regarding the hearts and chia seeds, you know that my thoughts are that these are usually OK and even good to use (even in Dals and other "predisposed" breeds).

As long as they increase happiness, hydration and quality of life.

BTW- the chia is used both as a "superfood" as well as to make the structured water and can be omitted if you make the water other ways such:

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[Dr. Jean Hofve]

Dals *can* develop copper toxicosis, but it is still uncommon. Unless your dog is suspected of having it, it's probably not necessary to avoid it. But, as Dr. Jeff surmised, I do have something to say about it!

It just so happens that copper was discussed in the AAFCO Pet Food Committee meeting last week. While no maximum for copper will be set, the expert panel that looked at it said that something in the range of 11 mg copper per kg/DM (per kilogram/2.2 lbs. of dry matter) would be on the low but adequate side. Their report suggests that 15 mg is probably plenty.

The average level of copper in commercial pet foods is around 20 mg/kg DM, but quite a few foods measured up to 80 mg, and some much more (up to 140 mg). I do not know where commercial raw diets would fall on this spectrum, but it would definitely be wise to call any manufacturer you might consider.

Homemade food is typically in the range of 20-30% dry matter. Use the USDA database to find the copper content of your ingredients FoodData Central. Then all you need to know is how much a meal weighs, and do the math. (Personally, I do *not* do math!) You likely will have room for chia or hearts. 100 gm (about 3 oz) of raw chicken heart contains 0.346 mg--not what I would think of as "high." Just keep it under 15 mg total.

You can certainly freeze/refreeze meat at least twice, assuming it doesn't spend very much time in a thawed state where spoilage will progress. I think Ginny is correct in her assessment, though I probably wouldn't do it more than 3 times if I could avoid it.

Being a science nerd, I totally get that homemade seems fraught and technical. I don't like to give hard-and-fast advice because someone will mess it up, somewhere along the line! But in general, a good variety of meats, veggies, whatever you're using, will likely be just fine. When I had multiple cats and a big freezer, my method was to put the box of potential supplements on the counter and pick which ones "felt" right to me at the time. Calcium, taurine, and Omega-3 oil were always added, but there were lots of other goodies like spirulina, slippery elm, and carnitine that I could use. As far as I know, no cats were harmed, they all lived happy lives enjoying suppertime!

I only have one minor quibble with Ginny, and it's one of those "it depends." I prefer to feed dogs twice a day, and cats three times given. Having operated on a GDV at 3 am, it's not something I ever want to see again. Of course the major risk factors are one meal a day, raised feeding bowls, dogs who wolfed their food, and continued to be active at all crazy hours. Wolves get away with horking down 30# of meat , but they sleep for a couple days! They are born, bred, and raised to that diet so their systems are finely tuned. While we have to be a bit more cautious because of the generally crappy epigenetics our dogs have inherited. If they weren't raised on raw, transition should take a fair bit of time to allow the microbiome to reshuffle and reboot for the good stuff.

Okay it's way too late, I took ambien, I am going to start warbling Klingon Opera pretty soon if I dont go to be. Please excuse any typos or flights of fancy!

 

[dr_ judy herman]

Good morning, Patty.
I have 2 friends who are Dalmatian breeders. They are also very active in the DCA and on the health committee. Both have been feeding home made raw diets to their Dals and recommend the same to their puppy parents for about 30 years. Before current breeding practices to genetically reduce the issue of stone formation they were able to avoid this devastating disease. You may want to check the DCA and see if there are raw feeding recommendations or resources. You may also look at Lew Olson's B-Naturals.com for more ideas.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Wow, thanks so much Jean and Judy for the wonderful replies! ? ? ??

my method was to put the box of potential supplements on the counter and pick which ones "felt" right to me at the time.

Yes! That seems to be (to me) a super sustainable and intuitive way to supplement.

Personally I have a tray of supplements and use them intermittently with Lemon Balm (Vimergy), Rx Zyme. (Rx Vitamins) and spirulina (also Vimergy) added to Archie's raw egg snack most days.